The Burka Ban

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Re: The Burka Ban

Post by The_Amber_Spyglass on Sun Jul 25, 2010 5:18 am

alland wrote:I was stating an opinion -- and it was about more than the call to prayer. This is just something we're not going to agree on.
So what was it about? He finds the (often unpleasant) noise coming from minarets (and at five in the morning) to be disturbing his peace. I think that is fair comment personally.
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Re: The Burka Ban

Post by Guest on Sun Jul 25, 2010 10:19 am

It was about an earlier comment that he made... scroll up.

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Re: The Burka Ban

Post by BecMacFeegle on Sun Jul 25, 2010 1:29 pm

I shall now put my two penneth worth in and really piss everybody off. Sowwy.

I'm actually opposed to the ban ::shock horror gasp:: for a few reasons. I actually hate seeing women in the full dress, faces and hair covered - it gets my feminist tail twitching. But that is MY problem, not their's - for societies to function we have to tolerate other people's belief, but we don't have to respect.

Firstly, I think it may well cause a problem for some women. They may not feel able to go out, they may not be allowed to go out - either by their relatives or due to feeling in their own community. This would only isolate such women further.

Secondly, I think the MP in the OP was completely off saying he wouldn't see such women if they insisted on covering their faces. HE represents HER - HE is HER employee - he has no business saying that. If it becomes law, then I suppose these women will have to respect it, but it isn't yet so he has no place dictating it.

Thirdly, I actually think people should be allowed to wear whatever the hell they like and I don't think there should be ANY laws regarding clothing. I think people should be allowed to walk around in the nude if they want to (there's actually a guy in London who walks around with nothing but a sandwich board campaigning for just that - good on him, I say).

Fourthly, I don't think the objections to facial covering strong enough to merit a law. If it is our social/cultural demand that they not cover their faces, then social imperatives are all we should use to argue against such practices - NOT laws. If someone finds it uncomfortable - sorry, but it's tough. We have to live with it. Yes it would be better if people made a concerted effort to integrate into a new society and adopted, gradually, some of their values but you can't FORCE them.

Fifth, it may not be necessary under Islamic law that these women cover their faces but they want to - so trying to force them to stop doing it because we think it's a sign that they're being oppressed is bizarre. It is not causing any harm beyond making people uncomfortable and creating a sense that they refuse to accept our culture. Really, we should not be trying to ban the Burka in this country - we should try and ban other countries from legislating against how WE choose to dress and behave when we visit them. If a woman wants to wear hot pants and a boob tube, or a man wants to walk about in crocs and speeods in Cairo they should be able to, if a couple want to snuggle on the streets of Dubai, fabulous. THAT is the ideal in my opinion, not laws which force people to conform to social norms.

As for the call to prayer, I think that's different because it does actually impact upon other people's quality of life - a continuous and loud noise in a built up area would be classed as anti-social behaviour - it could disturb peoples' sleep, distract them from their activities and generally be invasive. If compromises could be reached - a reduction in noise level, only using it at certain times, fewer repetitions, etc, then it may be possible to reach a compromise - which is what tolerance is all about.

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Re: The Burka Ban

Post by The_Amber_Spyglass on Sun Jul 25, 2010 2:35 pm

alland wrote:It was about an earlier comment that he made... scroll up.
His views are his views. I personally do not find them intolerant. Of course he has to put up with it so long as they are within the law, but he doesn't have to like it. Tolerance is the act of accepting that they have a right to do certain things within the boundaries of the law, it is not outright approval of their actions.

I would say the same about Americans currently living in Europe who do not like certain aspects of European society, or vice versa. They too are free to leave.
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Re: The Burka Ban

Post by BubbleBliss on Sun Aug 01, 2010 8:57 pm

alland wrote:I was stating an opinion -- and it was about more than the call to prayer. This is just something we're not going to agree on.

As was I. Germany is a Christian country, and while there certainly is freedom of religion, there are also noise pollution laws. As Matt said, the Minaret is not vital to Islam, it is used as a way to call people to prayer and make them aware that it is time to pray and/or come down to the Mosque.
As for the Burka ban, it comes down to safety with me. If all a police officer or anybody looking at your driver's license can see are 2 eyes, there is a huge problem in identifying somebody. There could be any number of wanted fugitive or other kind of dangerous people under there and the police officer would not be allowed to ask them to remove their head gear. That's what it comes down to for me and most of the people supporting the Burka ban. If you find that intolerant, then that's your opinion, but stating that I'm ignorant of the function of the minaret isn't.
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