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US-style anti-abortion protesters

Post by Guest on Thu Oct 28, 2010 2:23 pm


US-style anti-abortion protesters target clinics in Britain

By Jerome Taylor, Religous Affairs Correspondent
Tuesday, 26 October 2010


British women who want to terminate a pregnancy are being confronted by Christian protesters picketing abortion clinics, in a copy of tactics used by hardcore anti-abortionists in the US.


A Texas-based religious group, which has support and funding from hundreds of American churches, has been holding protests outside Marie Stopes House in central London, one of Britain's first modern abortion clinics.

It is the first time that the group – called 40 Days for Life – has targeted an abortion clinic in mainland Britain.

"Pro-choice" campaigners say pickets place unfair pressure on women at a vulnerable time in their lives. They accuse fundamentalist Christians of blocking pregnant women as they try to enter abortion clinics and providing them with misleading leaflets that over-exaggerate the medical risks of terminating a pregnancy. Clinic staff told The Independent that 40 Days for Life had filmed some women and employees walking into the clinic.

The "pro-lifers" counter that their protests are simply peaceful "prayer vigils" to provide women with support and information on alternatives to terminating their pregnancy. Campaigners are holding a planned 40 days of protests, picketing clinics in 218 US cities, as well as in Australia, Denmark, Canada and Northern Ireland. The protest at Marie Stopes House was due to enter its 35th day today.

Beata Klepacka, a 31-year-old paediatrician from London, was one of five protesters thumbing rosary beads and praying loudly opposite the clinic last week. She explained how more than 500 volunteers, the majority being Catholic, use a rota to make sure that the clinic is picketed 12 hours a day.

"This is a peaceful, prayerful and legal vigil," she said. "Our primary concerns are the hearts and souls of the people who walk into that building.

"In America we have been very fruitful. We've seen seven clinics close because of our vigils and at least 3,100 women, who were going to have an abortion, but didn't."

Many of the leaflets handed out by 40 Days for Life contain warnings about a supposed increase in breast cancer among women who have abortions. Cancer Research UK and Breakthrough Breast Cancer have consistently presented peer-reviewed research indicating that there is no link.

The group says that its London protest has resulted in six women changing their minds. It also claims two of the clinic's staff have resigned. Marie Stopes denied this, before issuing a short statement: "We support people's right to protest as long as it doesn't infringe upon a woman's right to access our much-needed services or infringe upon their privacy."

Darinka Aleksic, campaign co-ordinator at Abortion Rights, said she had been tracking a significant recent upswing in anti-abortion protests.

"American-style tactics are being increasingly used in Britain, not just with pickets but with internet campaigns and the use of misleading leafleting," she said. "We are strongly in favour of women receiving as much support, counselling and information about abortion as possible. But we're worried about the tenor of a lot of the advice being given out by these pickets. There's a lot of emphasis on guilt and misleading scientific information."

Robert Colquhoun, 28, who runs the British arm of 40 Days for Life, said: "Some of the pregnancy services we have links with have some of the most caring, loving, selfless people I know.

"I am pro-choice. But I am not pro-choice about rape, burglary, kidnapping or killing children."

The politics of abortion

Abortion clinic pickets are one arm of a renewed assault on Britain's abortion laws by Christians and social conservatives.

Two years ago Parliament voted against reducing the cut-off limit for abortions from 24 weeks into a pregnancy to 22 weeks. Among those to vote for a reduction were David Cameron, William Hague and the Health Secretary, Andrew Lansley.

The anti-abortion lobby is determined to hold a rematch. Therese Coffey, a newly elected Tory MP, has tabled an early day motion which would require women seeking an abortion on mental health grounds to receive counselling and be warned of possible risks to their mental health.

Anti-abortionists hope EDM 834 will spark a renewed debate over the abortion laws.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/usstyle-antiabortion-protesters-target-clinics-in-britain-2116410.html?

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the anti-abortion movement must be one of the most shameful social stance of modern American Christians.. if only they would keep such anti-woman ideas to themselves, I for one would happy.

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Re: US-style anti-abortion protesters

Post by Guest on Thu Oct 28, 2010 5:52 pm

the anti-abortion movement must be one of the most shameful social stance of modern American Christians.. if only they would keep such anti-woman ideas to themselves, I for one would happy.

I empathise with some of the "anti-abortion" pro-life movement, in the sense that if you believe human life begins at the moment of conception, any action taken to deliberately terminate the progress to eventual person-hood is murder. Whilst I believe they are factually wrong on where personhood begins (and thus wrong on where the debate matters most), I don't think being pro-life is at all "shameful".

As with other American-based led efforts to re-Christianise (made up word I know) or make us "better" people, it will fail and fail badly. Remember the "Silver Ring Thing"? Whatever happened to them?

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Re: US-style anti-abortion protesters

Post by dblboggie on Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:02 pm

Remarkably, I completely agree with you here merk.

However, knowing what we now know about the development of the fetus in utero (there was an amazing documentary on this that I saw), I think it would be not be off-base to say that the abortion of a fetus in the 3rd trimester could be fairly called murder, and this might even extend to abortions late in the 2nd trimester. I believe that the point a fetus can viably exist outside the womb, is the point at which its abortion would be fairly classed as murder.

I say this as a confirmed agnostic with no stake in this debate. It would be of interest to me to hear how others who are not religious (agnostics/athiests) feel about this point from a strictly scientific and legal point of view.
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Re: US-style anti-abortion protesters

Post by TexasBlue on Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:24 pm

To reiterate;
from a strictly scientific and legal point of view.
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Re: US-style anti-abortion protesters

Post by dblboggie on Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:38 pm

TexasBlue wrote:To reiterate;
from a strictly scientific and legal point of view.

Thanks for the emphasis Tex. I could care less about the religious views on abortion, I just wish to explore the scientific and legal implications of abortion after the point a fetus can be said to exist viably outside the womb.
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Re: US-style anti-abortion protesters

Post by BubbleBliss on Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:37 am


It depends on a country's laws, whether it could be considered murder or not. Killing a pregnant woman in the US is a double murder, yet at the same time abortions are not illegal.
The German law says that life begins at the time of birth, but that law was written long before the modern practice of abortions was introduced. As in most developed countries, German law states that up to a certain point abortions are legal. Not quite sure where that point is, but I believe it is the 1st trimester.
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Re: US-style anti-abortion protesters

Post by Guest on Fri Oct 29, 2010 10:45 am

dblboggie wrote:Remarkably, I completely agree with you here merk.

However, knowing what we now know about the development of the fetus in utero (there was an amazing documentary on this that I saw), I think it would be not be off-base to say that the abortion of a fetus in the 3rd trimester could be fairly called murder, and this might even extend to abortions late in the 2nd trimester. I believe that the point a fetus can viably exist outside the womb, is the point at which its abortion would be fairly classed as murder.

I say this as a confirmed agnostic with no stake in this debate. It would be of interest to me to hear how others who are not religious (agnostics/athiests) feel about this point from a strictly scientific and legal point of view.

I for one believe women have the right over their own bodies, not the state or a religion but the woman herself.. so I would give my support to any law which brings total freedom to women a little closer.

so if a woman; for what ever reason; wants an abortion it should be her right to have a safe abortion.. and must never be driven back into the bloody arms of the off street abortionist.

for the state or religion to bring a second person into their view is nothing more then a refusal to see the woman has a right over her own body

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Re: US-style anti-abortion protesters

Post by The_Amber_Spyglass on Fri Oct 29, 2010 10:56 am

There will be a backlash against these people, we simply do not like extremists of any flavour.

Abortion is always going to be a touchy subject and though I am uncomfortable that some people are still being so reckless about birth control, I would rather there were fewer abortions and part of that is to reduce the amount of unwanted pregnancies.

It also concerns me that some people could be so rigidly against abortion that they have such little regard for the life of the mother. Take the Catholic Church for example. Last year an 11 year old girl had an abortion after being raped by her stepfather. Three Doctors agreed: If she has the baby, she will die. I find it incredibly callous that they could sit in judgement over the life of a child in this way and basically say "your life is forfeit for the unborn you carry". I actually find that repulsive and callous.
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Re: US-style anti-abortion protesters

Post by Guest on Fri Oct 29, 2010 12:05 pm

The_Amber_Spyglass wrote:There will be a backlash against these people, we simply do not like extremists of any flavour.

Abortion is always going to be a touchy subject and though I am uncomfortable that some people are still being so reckless about birth control, I would rather there were fewer abortions and part of that is to reduce the amount of unwanted pregnancies.

It also concerns me that some people could be so rigidly against abortion that they have such little regard for the life of the mother. Take the Catholic Church for example. Last year an 11 year old girl had an abortion after being raped by her stepfather. Three Doctors agreed: If she has the baby, she will die. I find it incredibly callous that they could sit in judgement over the life of a child in this way and basically say "your life is forfeit for the unborn you carry". I actually find that repulsive and callous.

"I find it incredibly callous that they could sit in judgement " but every woman of what ever age has to go through the same judgment in America or Britain before they can legally have to right.. and all that before they have to "run the moral gauntlet" for these strange people.

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Re: US-style anti-abortion protesters

Post by The_Amber_Spyglass on Fri Oct 29, 2010 12:16 pm

What do you mean "has to go through the same moral judgement"? Certainly not by the clinics here. Who cares what anybody else thinks? The reason to have an abortion should be between the parents.
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Re: US-style anti-abortion protesters

Post by BecMacFeegle on Fri Oct 29, 2010 1:19 pm

Dearest husband, I think we might be about to have out first disagreement on this board! Yay! I promise that all arguments shall stay on the board and not spill over....into you sleeping on the sofa or...even me sleeping on the sofa...or some such...

En-nee-way...

See, I don't actually have a problem with what these people are doing. I don't believe the numbers they're giving with regards to how many women have changed their minds about having an abortion - they'd need to back that up, and they'd need to follow it up to be sure that the woman had actually not gone on to have a termination at another time and place BUT...but...you know how I feel about abortion. Oh. Other people here don't? Oh ok...oh and bdl is interested in hearing people's opinions? Well, I suppose he did ask for it.

My feelings on abortion
- an essay by becmacfeegle

I am of the opinion that abortions should be lawfully available to any woman who wants one (up to a certain point in the pregnancy) - BUT - I also think that abortion should NOT be viewed as a form of birth control. Not only in this dangerous but I feel it also degrades somewhat the value which we place on human life. Now of course I value the mother's life more highly than that of the foetus child - I'm not advocating denying women the choice - but that doesn't mean I place no value on the foetus. To view the developing human being as merely a parasite which leaches off the mother - as some do, in its most extreme form; or as merely a thing of no consequence - with no sense of self, and therefore valueless and unimportant -is to devalue human beings. A foetus may have no more complexity or self awareness than a sea cucumber but it has value because of what it may become.

My view is that abortion should be viewed socially as something negative - something which must on occasion take place, but which is ultimately regrettable. It should never be viewed as a form of birth control by people too irresponsible to take precautions before they have sex. I would not legislate against abortion - to do so forces it underground, and I would not attempt to restrict access to abortions - which could also force the practice underground or lead to the unfortunate prospect of more terminations taking place later in the pregnancy.

When terminations have to occur they should ideally be carried out sooner rather than later. I would personally put the cut off point for terminations at 22 weeks - 24 weeks may be when a child is said to be self aware, but knowing that doctors are not always precise in estimating the age of a foetus, it would be better to place a safe buffer - add to that that some children have survived outside the womb from 22 weeks.

So yeah - socially we should see it as something sad that has to happen occasionally. Put the legal cut off point for most terminations to 22 weeks (barring extenuating circumstances). And generally make people appreciate how awesome and incredible life - particularly human life and the wonders of conception - really are.

Failing that, ban stupid people from having sex. Yah I'm only joking. Kinda.

So right, husband, back to you.

The_Amber_Spyglass wrote:There will be a backlash against these people, we simply do not like extremists of any flavour.

Well, I don't think they've actually done anything wrong - and I wouldn't call them extremists. I am extremely skeptical* of the numbers of women they claim to have convinced not to have had an abortion. BUT if they've encouraged even one woman to change her mind, I can't help but see that as a good thing. If they're encouraging women to think about their actions more, and for people to think about this issue more generally then I think that's a good thing.

But they must not be allowed to harass these women - that would be wrong. Talking to them and sharing their ideas is one thing - but any open hostility and they would have to be removed. And if they are delaying women from having an abortion when they are set on it - then that is also a bad thing.

For me the issue is the difference between seeing having an abortion as a taboo - something which carries a social stigma - and seeing it as something which should be viewed as a sad occurrence . I think abortion is something which every woman, and man, should desperately want to avoid having to do at all costs, but which is available when necessary.

I just want people to be more responsible. If you can't figure out how to use a condom, then you shouldn't be having sex.


*yes I know I'm spelling sceptical wrong but the proper way it looks like the name of cleaning fluid or something.
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Re: US-style anti-abortion protesters

Post by Guest on Fri Oct 29, 2010 7:08 pm

dblboggie wrote: I believe that the point a fetus can viably exist outside the womb, is the point at which its abortion would be fairly classed as murder.

With our current technology, we could have babies born and grown right out of vats, I'm not sure if whether it is possible to survive out of the womb is a good criteria. I believe the question of "person-hood" is the important thing to consider here, and we do have some (if imperfect) idea of where it begins. The limit here in the YouKay is at 24 weeks, roughly the same with many other western nations and (I believe) most US states. The number isn't arbitrary, at this point of development, most philosophers, neuroscientists and surgeons agree that rapid mental development at this stage leads to at least rudimentary consciousness, which many argue is the essential ingredient for being "human being" rather then just a fetus.

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Re: US-style anti-abortion protesters

Post by dblboggie on Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:27 pm

BecMacFeegle wrote:Dearest husband, I think we might be about to have out first disagreement on this board! Yay! I promise that all arguments shall stay on the board and not spill over....into you sleeping on the sofa or...even me sleeping on the sofa...or some such...

En-nee-way...

See, I don't actually have a problem with what these people are doing. I don't believe the numbers they're giving with regards to how many women have changed their minds about having an abortion - they'd need to back that up, and they'd need to follow it up to be sure that the woman had actually not gone on to have a termination at another time and place BUT...but...you know how I feel about abortion. Oh. Other people here don't? Oh ok...oh and bdl is interested in hearing people's opinions? Well, I suppose he did ask for it.

My feelings on abortion
- an essay by becmacfeegle

I am of the opinion that abortions should be lawfully available to any woman who wants one (up to a certain point in the pregnancy) - BUT - I also think that abortion should NOT be viewed as a form of birth control. Not only in this dangerous but I feel it also degrades somewhat the value which we place on human life. Now of course I value the mother's life more highly than that of the foetus child - I'm not advocating denying women the choice - but that doesn't mean I place no value on the foetus. To view the developing human being as merely a parasite which leaches off the mother - as some do, in its most extreme form; or as merely a thing of no consequence - with no sense of self, and therefore valueless and unimportant -is to devalue human beings. A foetus may have no more complexity or self awareness than a sea cucumber but it has value because of what it may become.

My view is that abortion should be viewed socially as something negative - something which must on occasion take place, but which is ultimately regrettable. It should never be viewed as a form of birth control by people too irresponsible to take precautions before they have sex. I would not legislate against abortion - to do so forces it underground, and I would not attempt to restrict access to abortions - which could also force the practice underground or lead to the unfortunate prospect of more terminations taking place later in the pregnancy.

When terminations have to occur they should ideally be carried out sooner rather than later. I would personally put the cut off point for terminations at 22 weeks - 24 weeks may be when a child is said to be self aware, but knowing that doctors are not always precise in estimating the age of a foetus, it would be better to place a safe buffer - add to that that some children have survived outside the womb from 22 weeks.

So yeah - socially we should see it as something sad that has to happen occasionally. Put the legal cut off point for most terminations to 22 weeks (barring extenuating circumstances). And generally make people appreciate how awesome and incredible life - particularly human life and the wonders of conception - really are.

Failing that, ban stupid people from having sex. Yah I'm only joking. Kinda.

So right, husband, back to you.

The_Amber_Spyglass wrote:There will be a backlash against these people, we simply do not like extremists of any flavour.

Well, I don't think they've actually done anything wrong - and I wouldn't call them extremists. I am extremely skeptical* of the numbers of women they claim to have convinced not to have had an abortion. BUT if they've encouraged even one woman to change her mind, I can't help but see that as a good thing. If they're encouraging women to think about their actions more, and for people to think about this issue more generally then I think that's a good thing.

But they must not be allowed to harass these women - that would be wrong. Talking to them and sharing their ideas is one thing - but any open hostility and they would have to be removed. And if they are delaying women from having an abortion when they are set on it - then that is also a bad thing.

For me the issue is the difference between seeing having an abortion as a taboo - something which carries a social stigma - and seeing it as something which should be viewed as a sad occurrence . I think abortion is something which every woman, and man, should desperately want to avoid having to do at all costs, but which is available when necessary.

I just want people to be more responsible. If you can't figure out how to use a condom, then you shouldn't be having sex.


*yes I know I'm spelling sceptical wrong but the proper way it looks like the name of cleaning fluid or something.

I am very much interested in hearing other people's opinions... that's why I asked for them.

And I have to say that I found your essay right on the money! It's quite remarkable actually, because we agree on pretty much every single point you made on this issue! There is not a single thing I need to add to it.

Outstanding response Bec!
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Re: US-style anti-abortion protesters

Post by dblboggie on Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:31 pm

merkwurdigliebe wrote:
dblboggie wrote: I believe that the point a fetus can viably exist outside the womb, is the point at which its abortion would be fairly classed as murder.

With our current technology, we could have babies born and grown right out of vats, I'm not sure if whether it is possible to survive out of the womb is a good criteria. I believe the question of "person-hood" is the important thing to consider here, and we do have some (if imperfect) idea of where it begins. The limit here in the YouKay is at 24 weeks, roughly the same with many other western nations and (I believe) most US states. The number isn't arbitrary, at this point of development, most philosophers, neuroscientists and surgeons agree that rapid mental development at this stage leads to at least rudimentary consciousness, which many argue is the essential ingredient for being "human being" rather then just a fetus.

I only mention the point a fetus can viably exist outside the womb (sans vats) because at this point, not only has mental development reached an advanced stage, but the lungs have also developed to the point where the fetus can live outside the womb with some help (and sometimes with none).
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Re: US-style anti-abortion protesters

Post by Guest on Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:39 pm

The_Amber_Spyglass wrote:What do you mean "has to go through the same moral judgement"? Certainly not by the clinics here. Who cares what anybody else thinks? The reason to have an abortion should be between the parents.

with the west there is no right to abortion on demand but a woman needs to gain the acceptance of at lest a couple of doctors will to attest the wanted abortion fulfills the criteria set by governments.. this what I meant by women under going judgment.

I understand there is no such act of judgment in eastern Europe but much more the needful idea of abortion on demand.. but I not sure how it works out in the real world of the east.

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Re: US-style anti-abortion protesters

Post by Guest on Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:54 pm

dblboggie wrote: I believe that the point a fetus can viably exist outside the womb, is the point at which its abortion would be fairly classed as murder.

merkwurdigliebe wrote:With our current technology, we could have babies born and grown right out of vats, I'm not sure if whether it is possible to survive out of the womb is a good criteria. I believe the question of "person-hood" is the important thing to consider here, and we do have some (if imperfect) idea of where it begins. The limit here in the YouKay is at 24 weeks, roughly the same with many other western nations and (I believe) most US states. The number isn't arbitrary, at this point of development, most philosophers, neuroscientists and surgeons agree that rapid mental development at this stage leads to at least rudimentary consciousness, which many argue is the essential ingredient for being "human being" rather then just a fetus.

dblboggie wrote:I only mention the point a fetus can viably exist outside the womb (sans vats) because at this point, not only has mental development reached an advanced stage, but the lungs have also developed to the point where the fetus can live outside the womb with some help (and sometimes with none).

if a woman want her abortion at a time when the government fell the fetus can live with out aid out side the woman.. is it beyond the wits of man to request if the woman would be will to give over to the government ownership of the fetus she wants removed.. the responsibility of the child then becomes the states.. BUT dose any one think the state can look after such fetus any better then they look after other children in their care

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Re: US-style anti-abortion protesters

Post by dblboggie on Fri Oct 29, 2010 10:04 pm

cable2 wrote:
The_Amber_Spyglass wrote:What do you mean "has to go through the same moral judgement"? Certainly not by the clinics here. Who cares what anybody else thinks? The reason to have an abortion should be between the parents.

with the west there is no right to abortion on demand but a woman needs to gain the acceptance of at lest a couple of doctors will to attest the wanted abortion fulfills the criteria set by governments.. this what I meant by women under going judgment.

I understand there is no such act of judgment in eastern Europe but much more the needful idea of abortion on demand.. but I not sure how it works out in the real world of the east.
What is the source of this claim that "women need to gain acceptance of at least a couple of doctors" to get an abortion? A minor child can get an abortion here and do so without permission from her parents, and the abortion provider cannot, by LAW, inform the parents, even though an abortion is an invasive medical procedure with some risks.

The ONLY time a woman needs to get medical approval for an abortion is if it is a very late term abortion, or a partial birth abortion - a particularly gruesome practice, as it means allowing for the partial delivery of a live child and then killing it while it is partially out of the birth canal. These abortions can only be done if there is a serious threat to the life or health of the mother.

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Re: US-style anti-abortion protesters

Post by The_Amber_Spyglass on Sat Oct 30, 2010 3:08 am

merkwurdigliebe wrote:With our current technology, we could have babies born and grown right out of vats, I'm not sure if whether it is possible to survive out of the womb is a good criteria.
I presume he meant without artificial means. That would be my criteria too.
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Re: US-style anti-abortion protesters

Post by The_Amber_Spyglass on Sat Oct 30, 2010 3:12 am

BecMacFeegle wrote:Dearest husband, I think we might be about to have out first disagreement on this board! Yay!
Afraid not. You said nothing I disagree with.

BecMacFeegle wrote:I promise that all arguments shall stay on the board and not spill over....into you sleeping on the sofa or...even me sleeping on the sofa...or some such...
That would be difficult, being our anniversary tomorrow.

BecMacFeegle wrote:So yeah - socially we should see it as something sad that has to happen occasionally. Put the legal cut off point for most terminations to 22 weeks (barring extenuating circumstances). And generally make people appreciate how awesome and incredible life - particularly human life and the wonders of conception - really are.
Unless there are medical complications, I think it is generally pretty irresponsible to let your pregnancy get that far anyway.

BecMacFeegle wrote:But they must not be allowed to harass these women - that would be wrong.
If they are picketing aborton clinics, waving placards and generally engaging in emotional blackmail then that is harassment.
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Re: US-style anti-abortion protesters

Post by The_Amber_Spyglass on Sat Oct 30, 2010 3:20 am

cable2 wrote:
The_Amber_Spyglass wrote:What do you mean "has to go through the same moral judgement"? Certainly not by the clinics here. Who cares what anybody else thinks? The reason to have an abortion should be between the parents.

with the west there is no right to abortion on demand but a woman needs to gain the acceptance of at lest a couple of doctors will to attest the wanted abortion fulfills the criteria set by governments..
I don't think that is the case at all.
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Re: US-style anti-abortion protesters

Post by Guest on Sat Oct 30, 2010 4:50 am

dblboggie wrote: A minor child can get an abortion here and do so without permission from her parents

the girl did not need her parents permission to have sex so why would she need their permission to deal with one of sex's off shoots.. if the girl wanted her parents to know, she is free to tell them.. and mayhap the fact the girl is not will to tell her parents, says a great deal about their parenting skill.

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Re: US-style anti-abortion protesters

Post by TexasBlue on Sat Oct 30, 2010 5:14 am

cable2 wrote:
dblboggie wrote: A minor child can get an abortion here and do so without permission from her parents

the girl did not need her parents permission to have sex so why would she need their permission to deal with one of sex's off shoots.. if the girl wanted her parents to know, she is free to tell them.. and mayhap the fact the girl is not will to tell her parents, says a great deal about their parenting skill.

We have laws here in the USA. Remember that ol' saying of yours? Rule of Law?

Laws here demand that parents be notified of a kid having an abortion.

Then we have laws on underage girls (17 and under) having sex with someone who's over 18.
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Re: US-style anti-abortion protesters

Post by Guest on Sat Oct 30, 2010 5:40 am

The_Amber_Spyglass wrote:What do you mean "has to go through the same moral judgement"? Certainly not by the clinics here. Who cares what anybody else thinks? The reason to have an abortion should be between the parents.

cable2 wrote:with the west there is no right to abortion on demand but a woman needs to gain the acceptance of at lest a couple of doctors will to attest the wanted abortion fulfills the criteria set by governments..

The_Amber_Spyglass wrote:I don't think that is the case at all.

Europe's abortion rules


UNITED KINGDOM

Availability: Under certain conditions

Gestational limit: 24 weeks

Conditions: Abortion is allowed in England, Wales and Scotland to save a woman's life, for health, economic or social reasons. Two registered medical practitioners must certify that the required medical grounds have been met.

The procedure must be carried out, except in emergency, in a National Health Service hospital or in a nursing home, private hospital or other approved place. The consent of the spouse is not a prerequisite of the medical termination.

In Northern Ireland, the woman's health must be at risk. The difference between the British mainland and Northern Ireland occurred in 1967 when the Westminster parliament let the then Ulster authority decide not to adopt the new laws. Hundreds of women each year cross the Irish Sea to get abortions in England.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/6235557.stm

it's much more confusing in the US even with the "Roe v. Wade" ruling (1973)

"For the stage prior to approximately the end of the first trimester, the abortion decision and its effectuation must be left to the medical judgment of the pregnant woman's attending physician."

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Re: US-style anti-abortion protesters

Post by Guest on Sat Oct 30, 2010 5:47 am

dblboggie wrote:I only mention the point a fetus can viably exist outside the womb (sans vats) because at this point, not only has mental development reached an advanced stage, but the lungs have also developed to the point where the fetus can live outside the womb with some help (and sometimes with none).

I don't understand why should "lungs" or being able to live "without help" (whatever that may mean, no healthy baby or even child would live long without someone to care for them) should matter. A person who relies upon a mechanical set of lungs is no less a human being, someone who requires upon any number of electrical devices to keep their hearts working isn't any less more worthy then you or me. On the other hand, a person whose organs all work, but exists in vegetative state - isn't a "person", in the sense they are entitled to the same moral rights.

Morally, I feel "personhood" should only be reduced to one criteria, that being a wholly mental one.

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Re: US-style anti-abortion protesters

Post by Guest on Sat Oct 30, 2010 6:06 am

dblboggie wrote: A minor child can get an abortion here and do so without permission from her parents

cable2 wrote:the girl did not need her parents permission to have sex so why would she need their permission to deal with one of sex's off shoots.. if the girl wanted her parents to know, she is free to tell them.. and mayhap the fact the girl is not will to tell her parents, says a great deal about their parenting skill.

TexasBlue wrote:We have laws here in the USA. Remember that ol' saying of yours? Rule of Law?

yup I do say that and I also say.. bad laws need to be questioned and opposed.. and for me any law which denies a woman the right over her own body is a bad law.


TexasBlue wrote:Laws here demand that parents be notified of a kid having an abortion.

At least 16 states still have pre-1973 anti-abortion laws on the books even though they are clearly unconstitutional and nullified under Roe v. Wade. However some of them would be immediately enforceable if the U.S. Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade in the future. Others would remain unenforceable until judicial injunctions were lifted.

There have been many attempts since 1973 to reduce free access to abortions. Laws have been passed by some states and at the federal level to:

Require counseling and/or a cooling-off period before an abortion is performed.
Require an underage woman to notify, or obtain permission, from a parent, guardian or court.
End government financial support for women in poverty who seek abortions.
Ban abortions after viability of the fetus unless required to preserve the woman's life or health.
Ban all abortions.
Ban a D&X abortion procedure, except when performed on a dead fetus or to save the life of the woman.

the over all laws governing abortion in the US is still very confusing


TexasBlue wrote:Then we have laws on underage girls (17 and under) having sex with someone who's over 18.

yup young girls need protecting from the adult world.. but if I remember rightly most young girls chose young guys as their partners.. and not one in my memory asked her parent's consent before hand.

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Re: US-style anti-abortion protesters

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