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State multiculturalism has failed, says David Cameron
by The_Amber_Spyglass Sat Feb 05, 2011 4:21 am
The prime minister has criticised "state multiculturalism" in his first speech on radicalisation and the causes of terrorism since being elected.
Addressing a security conference in Germany, David Cameron argued the UK needed a stronger national identity to prevent people turning to extremism.
He also signalled a tougher stance on groups promoting Islamist extremism.
But the Muslim Council of Britain said its community was being seen as part of the problem rather than the solution.
Mr Cameron suggested there would be greater scrutiny of some Muslim groups that get public money but do little to tackle extremism.
Ministers should refuse to share platforms or engage with such groups, which should be denied access to public funds and barred from spreading their message in universities and prisons, he argued.
"Frankly, we need a lot less of the passive tolerance of recent years and much more active, muscular liberalism," the prime minister said.
"Let's properly judge these organisations: Do they believe in universal human rights - including for women and people of other faiths? Do they believe in equality of all before the law? Do they believe in democracy and the right of people to elect their own government? Do they encourage integration or separatism?
"These are the sorts of questions we need to ask. Fail these tests and the presumption should be not to engage with organisations," he added.
Reacting to the speech, the Muslim Council of Britain's assistant secretary general, Dr Faisal Hanjra, said the government had failed to move the issue on.
He told Radio 4's Today programme: "It is disappointing. We were hoping that with a new government, with a new coalition that there'd be a change in emphasis in terms of counter-terrorism and dealing with the problem at hand.
"In terms of the approach to tackling terrorism though it doesn't seem to be particularly new.
"Again it just seems the Muslim community is very much in the spotlight, being treated as part of the problem as opposed to part of the solution."
Muslim youth group The Ramadhan Foundation said that, by singling out Muslims, Mr Cameron had fed "hysteria and paranoia".
Chief executive Mohammed Shafiq said: "British Muslims abhor terrorism and extremism and we have worked hard to eradicate this evil from our country.
"But to suggest that we do not sign up to the values of tolerance, respect and freedom is deeply offensive and incorrect.
"Multiculturalism is about understanding each others faiths and cultures whilst being proud of our British citizenship."
In the speech in Munich, Mr Cameron drew a clear distinction between Islam the religion and what he described as "Islamist extremism" - a political ideology he said attracted people who feel "rootless" within their own countries.
"We need to be clear: Islamist extremism and Islam are not the same thing," he said.
The government is currently reviewing its policy to prevent violent extremism, known as Prevent, which is a key part of its wider counter-terrorism strategy.
'I am a Londoner too'
A genuinely liberal country "believes in certain values and actively promotes them", Mr Cameron said.
"Freedom of speech. Freedom of worship. Democracy. The rule of law. Equal rights, regardless of race, sex or sexuality.
"It says to its citizens: This is what defines us as a society. To belong here is to believe these things.
"Each of us in our own countries must be unambiguous and hard-nosed about this defence of our liberty."
He said under the "doctrine of state multiculturalism", different cultures have been encouraged to live separate lives.
"We have failed to provide a vision of society to which they feel they want to belong. We have even tolerated these segregated communities behaving in ways that run counter to our values."
Building a stronger sense of national and local identity holds "the key to achieving true cohesion" by allowing people to say "I am a Muslim, I am a Hindu, I am a Christian, but I am a Londoner... too", he said.
Security minister Baroness Neville-Jones said when Mr Cameron expressed his opposition to extremism, he meant all forms, not just Islamist extremism.
She told Today: "There's a widespread feeling in the country that we're less united behind values than we need to be.
"There are things the government can do to give a lead and encourage participation in society, including all minorities."
But the Islamic Society of Britain said the prime minister did not appreciate the nature of the problem.
Ajmal Masroor from the group told BBC Radio 5 live: "I think he's confusing a couple of issues: national identity and multiculturalism along with extremism are not connected. Extremism comes about as a result of several other factors."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-12371994
Tough talk on a serious problem with the intention to do something about it? Or just talk...?
The_Amber_Spyglass
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Re: State multiculturalism has failed, says David Cameron
by TexasBlue Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:17 am
Talk.
TexasBlue
Re: State multiculturalism has failed, says David Cameron
by The_Amber_Spyglass Sat Feb 05, 2011 2:02 pm
I fear you are right. Multi-culturalism has failed, more effort must be made by immigrants to absorb themselves into the countries that they move to. Of course keep your own identity, but realise that you are living in somebody else's country. I apply that as equally to Brits who move to Spain as I do to arabs who move to France or the UK.
The_Amber_Spyglass-
Re: State multiculturalism has failed, says David Cameron
by TexasBlue Sat Feb 05, 2011 2:19 pm
The_Amber_Spyglass wrote:I fear you are right. Multi-culturalism has failed, more effort must be made by immigrants to absorb themselves into the countries that they move to. Of course keep your own identity, but realise that you are living in somebody else's country. I apply that as equally to Brits who move to Spain as I do to arabs who move to France or the UK.
I agree 100%. When I say what you just did, I get labeled as a bigot... not in here but in other places and even in real life experiences.
TexasBlue
Re: State multiculturalism has failed, says David Cameron
by The_Amber_Spyglass Sat Feb 05, 2011 2:28 pm
I don't think that is bigotry. You're not wanting to force people to change everything they do to suit that other place but to appreciate that where they came from is not the same country as the one they have moved to. Is that really too much to ask?
Whenever I go on holiday abroad, I always try to learn a little bit of basic phrases from that country's language. As a result, I know a little bit of Greek and a little Russian. BecMacFeegle knows a little Mexican-Spanish. It is only polite. The Greeks in Greece usually want to speak English to practice theirs and the Russians were even more determined to hone their English even though I was there a whole month. That was their prerogative but it doesn't harm to try, and it is polite.
Whenever I go on holiday abroad, I always try to learn a little bit of basic phrases from that country's language. As a result, I know a little bit of Greek and a little Russian. BecMacFeegle knows a little Mexican-Spanish. It is only polite. The Greeks in Greece usually want to speak English to practice theirs and the Russians were even more determined to hone their English even though I was there a whole month. That was their prerogative but it doesn't harm to try, and it is polite.
The_Amber_Spyglass-
Re: State multiculturalism has failed, says David Cameron
by TexasBlue Sat Feb 05, 2011 3:29 pm
Bubbles and me had an argument in this line in here last year;
When my mom was in the hospital when she was first diagnosed with cancer (in '09), I spent about 25 of the 30 days there that she was in. In Minneapolis St. Paul, there's a huge Somalian population. Many are working in the medical field in various jobs and such. One day while I was there, there were two Somalian guys talking amongst one another in the hallway and were speaking their native tongue. It irritates me when folks do that. I find it disrespectful.
Maybe I'm just a bigot.
To me, it's one thing if they were doing it in the hospital cafeteria and another in the hallway of the hospital.... and talking loud enough so others can hear.
When my mom was in the hospital when she was first diagnosed with cancer (in '09), I spent about 25 of the 30 days there that she was in. In Minneapolis St. Paul, there's a huge Somalian population. Many are working in the medical field in various jobs and such. One day while I was there, there were two Somalian guys talking amongst one another in the hallway and were speaking their native tongue. It irritates me when folks do that. I find it disrespectful.
Maybe I'm just a bigot.
To me, it's one thing if they were doing it in the hospital cafeteria and another in the hallway of the hospital.... and talking loud enough so others can hear.
TexasBlue
Re: State multiculturalism has failed, says David Cameron
by The_Amber_Spyglass Sat Feb 05, 2011 3:50 pm
That doesn't bother me so much. They obviously had to have excellent English in order to be doing those jobs but I would find it rude if a non Somalian had been involved in the conversation.
The_Amber_Spyglass-
Re: State multiculturalism has failed, says David Cameron
by TexasBlue Sat Feb 05, 2011 3:56 pm
I guess it's a bias of mine when it comes to multi-lingual people.
TexasBlue
David Cameron Takes a Whack at Multiculturalism
by TexasBlue Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:27 am
David Cameron Takes a Whack at Multiculturalism
Daniel Hannan
Newsweek
February 13, 2011
The shocking thing is that anyone should have been shocked. The British prime minister’s repudiation of multiculturalism was so uncontroversial as to be almost platitudinous. In a recent speech, David Cameron emphasized the distinction between Islamic devotion and jihadi extremism, and argued that the government ought not to fund organizations that reject democracy, women’s rights, and equality before the law. He set out certain basic values that a liberal society ought to expect from its citizens: secularism, representative government, personal freedom, and the rule of law. He warned that “the doctrine of state multiculturalism” had pushed communities apart instead of integrating them:
“When a white person holds objectionable views, racist views for instance, we rightly condemn them. But when equally unacceptable views or practices come from someone who isn’t white, we’ve been too cautious frankly—frankly even fearful—to stand up to them.”
To most British people, including most British Muslims, this was a statement of the Pretty Bloody Obvious. Cameron’s remarks follow similar speeches by his French and German counterparts. Across Europe, there is a recognition that multiculturalism has failed in its own terms, creating ghettos and cutting off some immigrant women, in particular, from full participation in a free society.
The trouble is that it takes a long time for such sentiments to percolate through the government machine. State bureaucracies, especially in local government, remain wedded to their diversity advisers, their interpreters, their racism-awareness counselors. As Upton Sinclair once remarked, “It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his job depends upon not understanding it.”
Racial and cultural awareness has been elevated, in many public-sector institutions, as the supreme goal of policy, with sometimes tragic consequences. A little girl from West Africa was battered to death because social workers tiptoed around the sensitivities of her guardians. Children in a London care home suffered abuse because the local council’s anti-racism strategy prevented a key worker from being removed. Young women are subjected to forced marriages.
Even worse is the way multiculturalism has radicalized second-generation immigrants. British-born boys have been rounded up on the battlefields of Afghanistan. Two traveled to Gaza as suicide bombers. Others have been involved in terrorist attempts at home. Pundits, observing that many of these young men have been supported by the British welfare state, wonder why they are biting the hand that feeds them. Yet it is precisely their interactions with the state that taught them to despise it. If they learned any British history at all in school, it will have been presented to them as a hateful chronicle of racism and exploitation. For four decades, Britain’s elites have derided the concept of patriotism, insisting that the nation-state ought to be dissolved into a wider European polity. Finding Britishness scorned, many people are groping back toward older identities as English or Scottish. But where does this leave the children of settlers? What is there for them to be part of?
It’s hardly as though British Islam were a new phenomenon: 100 years ago, 80 percent of British subjects were neither white nor Christian. British Muslims of that era arguably had genuine cause to resent us: we had, after all, occupied their homelands. Yet twice in the last century, in their tens of millions they crossed half the world to fight for a country they had never set eyes on because they believed in British values. How different is the experience of their descendants today.
Idiotically, some Labour politicians have attacked Cameron’s speech as likely to give succor to racists. Their complaints are the authentic voice of self-interest, for it is those who work in the multi-culti apparatus who have the most to lose. When you read of a council banning Christmas lights out of respect for other faiths, there is almost always a quote from the local imam to the effect that Muslims would be much happier if their Christian neighbors observed their festivals. Multiculturalism, in other words, was not a response to demands by immigrants; rather it was a form of anti-culturalism, an excuse to attack any manifestation of patriotism.
We can see now where that doctrine leads: to Balkanization, repression, resentment, and, in extreme cases, terrorism. One speech won’t solve the problem; but it’s a good start.
Hannan is a British Conservative member of the European Parliament.
Daniel Hannan
Newsweek
February 13, 2011
The shocking thing is that anyone should have been shocked. The British prime minister’s repudiation of multiculturalism was so uncontroversial as to be almost platitudinous. In a recent speech, David Cameron emphasized the distinction between Islamic devotion and jihadi extremism, and argued that the government ought not to fund organizations that reject democracy, women’s rights, and equality before the law. He set out certain basic values that a liberal society ought to expect from its citizens: secularism, representative government, personal freedom, and the rule of law. He warned that “the doctrine of state multiculturalism” had pushed communities apart instead of integrating them:
“When a white person holds objectionable views, racist views for instance, we rightly condemn them. But when equally unacceptable views or practices come from someone who isn’t white, we’ve been too cautious frankly—frankly even fearful—to stand up to them.”
To most British people, including most British Muslims, this was a statement of the Pretty Bloody Obvious. Cameron’s remarks follow similar speeches by his French and German counterparts. Across Europe, there is a recognition that multiculturalism has failed in its own terms, creating ghettos and cutting off some immigrant women, in particular, from full participation in a free society.
The trouble is that it takes a long time for such sentiments to percolate through the government machine. State bureaucracies, especially in local government, remain wedded to their diversity advisers, their interpreters, their racism-awareness counselors. As Upton Sinclair once remarked, “It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his job depends upon not understanding it.”
Racial and cultural awareness has been elevated, in many public-sector institutions, as the supreme goal of policy, with sometimes tragic consequences. A little girl from West Africa was battered to death because social workers tiptoed around the sensitivities of her guardians. Children in a London care home suffered abuse because the local council’s anti-racism strategy prevented a key worker from being removed. Young women are subjected to forced marriages.
Even worse is the way multiculturalism has radicalized second-generation immigrants. British-born boys have been rounded up on the battlefields of Afghanistan. Two traveled to Gaza as suicide bombers. Others have been involved in terrorist attempts at home. Pundits, observing that many of these young men have been supported by the British welfare state, wonder why they are biting the hand that feeds them. Yet it is precisely their interactions with the state that taught them to despise it. If they learned any British history at all in school, it will have been presented to them as a hateful chronicle of racism and exploitation. For four decades, Britain’s elites have derided the concept of patriotism, insisting that the nation-state ought to be dissolved into a wider European polity. Finding Britishness scorned, many people are groping back toward older identities as English or Scottish. But where does this leave the children of settlers? What is there for them to be part of?
It’s hardly as though British Islam were a new phenomenon: 100 years ago, 80 percent of British subjects were neither white nor Christian. British Muslims of that era arguably had genuine cause to resent us: we had, after all, occupied their homelands. Yet twice in the last century, in their tens of millions they crossed half the world to fight for a country they had never set eyes on because they believed in British values. How different is the experience of their descendants today.
Idiotically, some Labour politicians have attacked Cameron’s speech as likely to give succor to racists. Their complaints are the authentic voice of self-interest, for it is those who work in the multi-culti apparatus who have the most to lose. When you read of a council banning Christmas lights out of respect for other faiths, there is almost always a quote from the local imam to the effect that Muslims would be much happier if their Christian neighbors observed their festivals. Multiculturalism, in other words, was not a response to demands by immigrants; rather it was a form of anti-culturalism, an excuse to attack any manifestation of patriotism.
We can see now where that doctrine leads: to Balkanization, repression, resentment, and, in extreme cases, terrorism. One speech won’t solve the problem; but it’s a good start.
Hannan is a British Conservative member of the European Parliament.
TexasBlue
Re: State multiculturalism has failed, says David Cameron
by The_Amber_Spyglass Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:56 pm
I wouldn't say that schools have taught us to be ashamed of our history for 40 years, I left school 20 years ago this year with very little knowledge of British history beyond the basics.
New Labour is almost entirely responsible for demonising celebration of the British (more specifically English) culture. But we've not really gone in for heart-on-the-sleeve flag waving as you Americans are, unless of course it comes to sport.
The problem isn't that Labour gave voice to Muslims or anoy other culture, but that they promoted special interest groups such as The Muslim Council of Britain who do not speak for young Muslims, female Muslims or even Muslims whose bloodline came from outside Pakistan or Bangladesh. That created a unique situation where Muslims were both the most and least enfranchised group in Blair's Britain. What that led to was the increased popularity of racist groups such as the BNP and EDL, and young Muslims blowing themselves up on London's public transport on 7/7.
The other issue here, and something not much commented on, is that the Tory leadership identifies that this is a secular society, that they can no longer cling to the "faith, flag, family" of the past. To me, that is the most positive thing.
New Labour is almost entirely responsible for demonising celebration of the British (more specifically English) culture. But we've not really gone in for heart-on-the-sleeve flag waving as you Americans are, unless of course it comes to sport.
The problem isn't that Labour gave voice to Muslims or anoy other culture, but that they promoted special interest groups such as The Muslim Council of Britain who do not speak for young Muslims, female Muslims or even Muslims whose bloodline came from outside Pakistan or Bangladesh. That created a unique situation where Muslims were both the most and least enfranchised group in Blair's Britain. What that led to was the increased popularity of racist groups such as the BNP and EDL, and young Muslims blowing themselves up on London's public transport on 7/7.
The other issue here, and something not much commented on, is that the Tory leadership identifies that this is a secular society, that they can no longer cling to the "faith, flag, family" of the past. To me, that is the most positive thing.
The_Amber_Spyglass-
Re: State multiculturalism has failed, says David Cameron
by TexasBlue Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:43 pm
I'm not a flag waver personally. But I do defend my country against unfair libel/attacks.
But what it seems to come down to via your response is that politicians like to pander to certain classes of people. Over here, we're Americans, not hyphenated-American. The same for Brits. If I were to immigrate to the UK and gained citizenship, I'd consider myself a Englander first and foremost. Otherwise, I would stay where it was I came from.
I felt the same when living in Texas. I was a Texan, not a Minnesotan. One can argue the merits of whether one was born there or not but to me it don't matter.
But what it seems to come down to via your response is that politicians like to pander to certain classes of people. Over here, we're Americans, not hyphenated-American. The same for Brits. If I were to immigrate to the UK and gained citizenship, I'd consider myself a Englander first and foremost. Otherwise, I would stay where it was I came from.
I felt the same when living in Texas. I was a Texan, not a Minnesotan. One can argue the merits of whether one was born there or not but to me it don't matter.
TexasBlue
Re: State multiculturalism has failed, says David Cameron
by The_Amber_Spyglass Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:26 am
What I mean by that is the "God Bless America" by politicians. We don't tend to go for such outward expressions of patriotism.TexasBlue wrote:I'm not a flag waver personally. But I do defend my country against unfair libel/attacks.
Actually I would have no problem with people referring to themselves as hyphenated anything... if they had dual nationality. So in the case of the example you gave, if you moved here and took the full citizenship you would have a right to call yourself "British-American" because you would have been born in the USA and have become a British citizen. Nobody else should be doing it.TexasBlue wrote:But what it seems to come down to via your response is that politicians like to pander to certain classes of people. Over here, we're Americans, not hyphenated-American. The same for Brits. If I were to immigrate to the UK and gained citizenship, I'd consider myself a Englander first and foremost. Otherwise, I would stay where it was I came from.
But I agree that it is ridiculous when somebody calls themself "Pakistani-British", even more so if they have never been to Pakistan.
And there is no greater misnomer than "African-American", especially for those whose heritage has not been in Africa for 300 years and whose immediate ancestors came from Jamaica or Trinidad.
The_Amber_Spyglass-
Re: State multiculturalism has failed, says David Cameron
by TexasBlue Sat Feb 19, 2011 12:28 pm
The_Amber_Spyglass wrote:What I mean by that is the "God Bless America" by politicians. We don't tend to go for such outward expressions of patriotism.
Yeah, I don't do that GBA stuff myself. But it was appropriate when all of congress stood in front of the Capitol on 9-11 and sang it.
The_Amber_Spyglass wrote:Actually I would have no problem with people referring to themselves as hyphenated anything... if they had dual nationality. So in the case of the example you gave, if you moved here and took the full citizenship you would have a right to call yourself "British-American" because you would have been born in the USA and have become a British citizen. Nobody else should be doing it.
Fair enough for me.
The_Amber_Spyglass wrote:But I agree that it is ridiculous when somebody calls themself "Pakistani-British", even more so if they have never been to Pakistan.
Or Mexican-American here when they were born here. If that's okay for the PC bunch in the USA, then I'm going with Norwegian/French-American.
The_Amber_Spyglass wrote:And there is no greater misnomer than "African-American", especially for those whose heritage has not been in Africa for 300 years and whose immediate ancestors came from Jamaica or Trinidad.
Exactly. This is what I refer to when speaking of hyphenated-American (or whatever). Either you're American, British, etc or you're not (an exception for what you stated at the top).
TexasBlue
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