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Is Accused Norwegian Killer Breivik Headed to a Plush Prison?

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Post by dblboggie Wed Jul 27, 2011 7:32 pm

Wall Street Journal

July 27, 2011, 4:27 PM ET

Is Accused Norwegian Killer Breivik Headed to a Plush Prison?

By Nathan Koppel

We have all followed with horror the aftermath of the recent attacks in Norway that killed at least 76 people.

The latest news (via WSJ) is that the attorney for accused killer Anders Behring Breivik describes his client as likely “insane” and convinced that he is at the vanguard of a decades-long cultural war. Oslo attorney Geir Lippestad described Breivik as a calm, cold man who had used drugs “to stay awake and strong” for the attacks.

The killer could ultimately end up in a Norway prison that, at least by American standards, is pretty plush, according to this CBS News report. Here’s an earlier Fast Company report about Norway’s maximum-security Halden prison (pictured left), which offers flat-screen tvs and private bathrooms in cells, along with a gym, training room, school, and sound studio. And here’s a YouTube guided tour of the prison.

While Halden may strike a discordant note to American, law-and-order sensibilities, is there anything necessarily wrong with a prison that includes a few accoutrements? Does every big house have to be more like Alcatraz or Sing Sing to serve its purpose?

To address these questions and more, we caught up with Martin Horn, a professor at John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York and a former head of the prison system in Pennsylvania and New York City.

“Scandinavian countries have a history and tradition of a more open prison environment,” Horn said. “Their conditions tend to be less onerous.”

And there is nothing wrong with that, he said. “We don’t punish people by torture or purposely putting them in onerous conditions. The loss of liberty is the punishment.”

Plus, he added, “no none has been able to demonstrate the deterrent impact of a relatively plush versus relatively Spartan prison.”

Still, what about the victims of the tragedy? Might it not be galling to them if the alleged killer ultimately ends up in a setting that seems nicer than some New York City apartments? Horn said that while punishment must be responsive to “the needs of the victims,” it ultimately has to conform to “the best interest of the broader community.” The most important thing, he said, is to incapacitate violent individuals and to keep them away from the rest of society.

“It’s unfair to compare Scandinavian prisons to those in the United States,” Horn concluded. “We have a much deeper and more discomfiting history of violence and the expectations of victims and the public here is very different.”
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Post by dblboggie Wed Jul 27, 2011 7:33 pm

Check out the Youtube video first, then I'd like to see what others think of this prison.
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Post by TexasBlue Wed Jul 27, 2011 7:59 pm

I liked the one comment from a reader;

lol @ the recording studio. I'll definitely go break some Norwegian laws.
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Post by Guest Thu Aug 11, 2011 3:46 pm

dblboggie wrote:Wall Street Journal

July 27, 2011, 4:27 PM ET

Is Accused Norwegian Killer Breivik Headed to a Plush Prison?

By Nathan Koppel

The killer could ultimately end up in a Norway prison that, at least by American standards, is pretty plush, according to this CBS News report. Here’s an earlier Fast Company report about Norway’s maximum-security Halden prison (pictured left), which offers flat-screen tvs and private bathrooms in cells, along with a gym, training room, school, and sound studio.

I don't understand your trouble.. do you not want the killer to face the full rigor of Norwegian law??? …. Or is it, that you want the killer face the full rigor of American law???

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Post by dblboggie Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:25 am

cable2+1 wrote:
dblboggie wrote:Wall Street Journal

July 27, 2011, 4:27 PM ET

Is Accused Norwegian Killer Breivik Headed to a Plush Prison?

By Nathan Koppel

The killer could ultimately end up in a Norway prison that, at least by American standards, is pretty plush, according to this CBS News report. Here’s an earlier Fast Company report about Norway’s maximum-security Halden prison (pictured left), which offers flat-screen tvs and private bathrooms in cells, along with a gym, training room, school, and sound studio.

I don't understand your trouble.. do you not want the killer to face the full rigor of Norwegian law??? …. Or is it, that you want the killer face the full rigor of American law???

I want justice.

Having this cold-blooded killer living a cushy life that is much better than that which most people have outside of prison is not what I would call justice.

I don't have flat screen tv's a workout room, or a personal recording studio, and I live in the wealthiest nation on earth.

I'm sorry, but just because it is Norwegian law does not make it right and it certainly does not make it just.

Those are just the facts.

Remember, it used to be the law that slavery was just fine - and that was in all societies at one point in time or another. Did those laws make slavery right or just?
dblboggie
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Post by Guest Fri Aug 12, 2011 5:23 am

you want justice or vengeance ?

the Norwegians are not a foolish race.. their laws reflect their view on life.. each one long debated by their parliament before they where implemented, as was their prisons.

Americans behave differently to the Norwegians.. while American prisons are some of the harshest in the world they have not lessoned the numbers of people who commit crimes in America.. while Norway with it's less unpleasing prisons have a lower rate of crime.

slavery was the law in every Christan country for their Bible told them it was right and just.. Bad ideas as with Bad laws need to questioned.. both the Bible and the law had to be opposed before Slaves could be freed in Britain and in America and in....

but let us return to the Norwegian law covering murder.. as they do not have the death penalty [it is seen a barbaric] life in prison is their highest sentence.. which means he will spend the rest of his life in a Norwegian prison..

I don't think any one can for more then the full power of Norwegian law should fall apon the killer... But then you are not asking for a change in Norwegian law, you want the man to suffer more then spending the rest of this life in prison.. you want him to be tortured in the same way as you Americans torture your own prisoners... BUT not every one regrades the hell of American prisons as some thing to be copied.

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Post by TexasBlue Fri Aug 12, 2011 4:45 pm

cable2+1 wrote:life in prison is their highest sentence.. which means he will spend the rest of his life in a Norwegian prison..

Yep. He will. Twenty one years to be precise.

http://todayilearned.co.uk/2011/07/24/maximum-prison-sentence-norway-21-years/
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Post by Guest Fri Aug 12, 2011 7:12 pm

TexasBlue wrote:
cable2+1 wrote:life in prison is their highest sentence.. which means he will spend the rest of his life in a Norwegian prison..

Yep. He will. Twenty one years to be precise.

http: // todayilearned . co .uk / 2011 / 07 / 24 / maximum-prison-sentence-norway-21-years/

Despite 21 years is the maximum prison sentence by Norwegian law, it can be extended if the prisoner is deemed to be of risk to the society

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Post by TexasBlue Fri Aug 12, 2011 7:59 pm

Well, at least he'll have all the comforts of home.
Is Accused Norwegian Killer Breivik Headed to a Plush Prison? Norway-prison-6
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Post by dblboggie Sat Aug 13, 2011 12:54 am

cable2+1 wrote:you want justice or vengeance ?

Justice. Sending someone to prison for 20 years and having them live a quality of life much, much better than most persons in the civilized world have is NOT, by any stretch of the imagination, what any sane person would call justice. This man murdered, in cold blood, scores of innocent CHILDREN!!! And the Norwegian government answers this by putting the guy in the functional equivalent of a 4-star hotel (but with bars)??? Do you really think that is justice???

cable2+1 wrote:the Norwegians are not a foolish race.. their laws reflect their view on life.. each one long debated by their parliament before they where implemented, as was their prisons.

And I repeat, just because it is their law does not make it right or just. I don't care how long they debated it.

cable2+1 wrote:Americans behave differently to the Norwegians.. while American prisons are some of the harshest in the world they have not lessoned the numbers of people who commit crimes in America.. while Norway with it's less unpleasing prisons have a lower rate of crime.

One, this is just patently false. American prisons are FAR from the harshest in the world. This is just leftist propaganda. I realize you can't help yourself and must seek every opportunity to attack America, but I can think of far, FAR harsher prisons in MANY places in this world.

cable2+1 wrote:slavery was the law in every Christan country for their Bible told them it was right and just.. Bad ideas as with Bad laws need to questioned.. both the Bible and the law had to be opposed before Slaves could be freed in Britain and in America and in....

Again, you take the narrow view in order to assault Christianity and Western civilization. Slavery was UNIVERSAL throughout the history of the world, from ancient civilizations far predating Christianity and likely existing since man began to walk upright!

Christians did not invent and certainly did not have a monopoly on slavery! And, in fact, slavery is still being practiced by two Muslim countries in Africa to this very day!

cable2+1 wrote:but let us return to the Norwegian law covering murder.. as they do not have the death penalty [it is seen a barbaric] life in prison is their highest sentence.. which means he will spend the rest of his life in a Norwegian prison..

I don't think any one can for more then the full power of Norwegian law should fall apon the killer... But then you are not asking for a change in Norwegian law, you want the man to suffer more then spending the rest of this life in prison..


So their "highest sentence" for the murderer of scores of innocent and defenseless children, in cold blood, is to place this evil POS in a plush, even extravagant, "prison" for a mere 20 years - and they call that "life in prison"??? Really??? You call that "suffering" do you??? Hell, I'd LOVE to spend time in that prison!!! I could use the recording studio to complete that unfinished book-on-tape!

Do you really call that justice??? If so, you and I (and the dictionary) do NOT see eye-to-eye on the definition of justice!

cable2+1 wrote:you want him to be tortured in the same way as you Americans torture your own prisoners... BUT not every one regrades the hell of American prisons as some thing to be copied.

This is just more false and deliberately inflammatory rhetoric. I happen to know that it is because I know people who have been in prison here.

Is it a garden vacation spot like that Norwegian prison? You can be damn sure it is not. But it is FAR from the characterizations you are making about it. This is dishonest and merely an attempt to goad one into a flame war and it has no place on this forum.
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Post by kronos Sat Aug 13, 2011 11:34 am

Overall this topic is generating good debate, but here and there I see it getting personal. Please stick strictly to the issue and do not comment on your opponent.

cable 2 + 1 wrote:you want him to be tortured in the same way as you Americans torture your own prisoners

dblboggie wrote:This is dishonest and merely an attempt to goad one into a flame war and it has no place on this forum.

You're both in the wrong here in that you're interpreting your opponent's motives (which are irrelevant to the issue) in the worst way possible. Dbl does not want the man tortured, cable is not trying to start a flame war.

I think a good rule of thumb is to avoid sentences that use the pronoun "you," or more accurately, in which "you" is the subject.


@cable: the bold red means I'm modding, not debating. The ball is in your court--carry on.

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Post by dblboggie Sat Aug 13, 2011 11:21 pm

To be honest Kronos, I was objecting to the accusation that American prisoners were being tortured.

It is true that I don't want the Norwegian prisoner tortured, but I object to cable's accusation that the American penal system tortures their prisoners.

This is blatantly false and I find it extremely objectionable.

Again, cable makes an extremely offensive accusation with absolutely ZERO corroborating evidence.

THAT is what I was objecting to, not the accusation against me per se.
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Post by kronos Sun Aug 14, 2011 11:13 am

I knew that; it was clear from the context what you were objecting to. Sorry if the way I juxtaposed the quotes made it seem like I thought otherwise. The point I was making was that you were both accusing the other of something--which tends to derail a debate, because it tends to turn the attention from the issue to the other person. However, I think my comment derailed the debate more than anything either of you said, and I regret that. Maybe I'm being too proactive, and should wait until the debate has actually been derailed.

Just so you know where I'm coming from: cable's comment is objectively false, but (to me at least) not offensive. It's just false, that's all. At least according to the normal definition of the word "torture." Maybe he was being hyperbolic, or maybe he genuinely believes it's true?

I would love it if he would address this objection of yours.

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Post by BubbleBliss Mon Aug 15, 2011 8:45 am


I'm sure not all prison cells in Norway look like the picture posted above. Every country in the world has different types of security prisons.
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Post by Guest Mon Aug 15, 2011 2:46 pm

mayhap you dblboggie and others would like to type in any search engine "torture of American prisoners".. you will find many hundreds of thousands, news coverage on the subject.. so mayhap it is not just me and left wing views.. America has a very long history of "torture of American prisoners"

as a good student of American history dblboggie would be the first to agree that both sides of the civil war where recorded as "tortureing their prisoners".. as long as there has been histories of American prisons there has been too many cases of "torture of American prisoners"..

one just to remember that it was only after a great deal of campaing was the "Wikileaks" leaker taken out of the prison he was veing abused and tortured and thats only a few months ago.

youtube http: // www .youtube .com / watch?v =IWxpQ87C4t4 /youtube

by dblboggie
American prisons are FAR from the harshest in the world. This is just leftist propaganda

I never said American prisons the harshest in the world.. nor could any of my words be seen as say any thing other then Americans where tortured ln American prisons..

this don't mean there is no torture in prisons of counties or that I am picking on America unjustly.

by dblboggie

Justice. Sending someone to prison for 20 years and having them live a quality of life much, much better than most persons in the civilized world have is NOT, by any stretch of the imagination, what any sane person would call justice.

sane people, the world over would say a criminal should face the full weight of the law.. or would say the law needs to changed.. all over Europe one county after the next changed their law so that no one would be put to death by state.. and each of those European counties came up with alternative punishments.. very few of those European counties have the kind of views expessed here..

I has always say that I am a supporter of "the rule of law" so if the Norwegian law says this killer must face a life in prison then I must either gree with it or I must join same campaign to have the Norwegian law change..

by dblboggie
Again, you take the narrow view in order to assault Christianity and Western civilization. Slavery was UNIVERSAL throughout the history of the world, from ancient civilizations far predating Christianity and likely existing since man began to walk upright!

We where not debating the world in general but the views in America and Europe.. I it would not only be wrong to bring into debate the wide world when are taking about a small and narrow subject.. "Norwegian as compared to American treatment of killers".. the changing laws on Slavery in Europe and America was spoken by me as away which laws could and should be changed.. and in Europe and America Slavery was was not just back by Christianity it was justified by their bible.. so not only had Americans and Europeans over come the view on law but the Christian view on what was right and just and the changing the meaning of the word of their GOD or passages of the bible.. the fact there different claims for Slavery in other parts of the world should not belittle the battles the anti-slavers against the views of many Christians at the time..

by dblboggie

Do you really call that justice??? If so, you and I (and the dictionary) do NOT see eye-to-eye on the definition of justice!

jus·tice [juhs-tis]

noun

1. the quality of being just; righteousness, equitableness, or moral rightness: to uphold the justice of a cause.

2. rightfulness or lawfulness, as of a claim or title; justness of ground or reason: to complain with justice.

3. the moral principle determining just conduct.

4. conformity to this principle, as manifested in conduct; just conduct, dealing, or treatment.

5. the administering of deserved punishment or reward.

http: // dictionary .reference. com / browse / justice

I don't see how the Norwegians fall down in their concept of justice..

New members are not allowed to post external links or emails for 7 days I am sorry I thought the lnks would pass this time.. but I may not have been back the full 7 days.. I will type out the links with gaps so it they will pass.. please add the words together and go the sites

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