Former TSA Administrator: Body Scanners Are A Violation Of 4th Amendment

I don't believe you just said that.

Perhaps because we have had to live with international terrorism on home soil a lot longer than you have. And bearing in mind the UK was on the frontlines in the second world war with Nazi Germany just 30 miles across the water, suffering a blitz, aerial combat over our skies and overt attempts by Nazi agents to blow up our government and kill the monarch we have had to live with it for a long time. I'm not belittling the contribution your country made to the war but the US was too far away for Hitler to use the same tactics that this country went through.

Well think about it. What better place could a terrorist place a bomb than his private parts? Think about the guy from Nigeria that had the bomb in his underwear. If he would have had a container on his stomach for collecting Urine and the TSA Agents weren't allowed to search it, that is most likely where he would have placed the bomb.

There is if it saves lives.

It's funny though. When it comes to torture and civilian casualties, the right always resorts to the "Well, this is war, Sacrifices have to be made!" excuse. But when something like this comes up, no sacrifices should be made, only Arab looking people should be profiled and searched.

And as if I cared whether us Europeans are alone in this or not.

In such a situation, those terrorists would use US civil liberties and the 4th Amendment to their own advantage.

The_Amber_Spyglass wrote:In such a situation, those terrorists would use US civil liberties and the 4th Amendment to their own advantage.

Of course, it would be the best thing that could happen to them!

The_Amber_Spyglass wrote:Perhaps because we have had to live with international terrorism on home soil a lot longer than you have. And bearing in mind the UK was on the frontlines in the second world war with Nazi Germany just 30 miles across the water, suffering a blitz, aerial combat over our skies and overt attempts by Nazi agents to blow up our government and kill the monarch we have had to live with it for a long time. I'm not belittling the contribution your country made to the war but the US was too far away for Hitler to use the same tactics that this country went through.

You could use that reason and it would be valid.

BubbleBliss wrote:There is if it saves lives.

It's funny though. When it comes to torture and civilian casualties, the right always resorts to the "Well, this is war, Sacrifices have to be made!" excuse. But when something like this comes up, no sacrifices should be made, only Arab looking people should be profiled and searched.

And as if I cared whether us Europeans are alone in this or not.

You need to get out of the box of your conventional thinking.

The Israelis have gotten out of that and they've never had one terrorist incident with an El Al flight. They do it by profiling the passengers and asking the right questions.

Some may say, "Oh, we can't profile, it would violate our civil rights"!

Here's a news flash to that objection. Everyone else's civil rights are now being violated right now by treating everyone as a criminal.

TexasBlue wrote:You need to get out of the box of your conventional thinking.

And you need to get out of yours that Muslims will take great pain to advertise themselves as such. Do all Muslims have long beards and proclaim loudly wherever they go "praise be to Allah!" at the tops of their voices?

Disguises are pretty easy for the determined terrorist. Do you think that IRA bombers didn't try to learn to mask their accents? Nope, let's not search him, his accent is definitely not Irish. I have manged to fool my brother on the phone in the past by putting on a thick Scottish accent and he was oblivious that it was me. If I can do that, imagine what a determined terrorist could do with expensive accent tuition lessons, lessons that actors take all the time to hone their craft.

All a Muslim need do to evade detection in such a situation is to dress as a Sikh. Yes, all he need do is dress like this:



Are you perhaps advocating everybody who has slightly dark skin? Wouldn't that be taking away the freedom of Sikhs who are no more or less Muslim than you are?

My whole point is profiling. You profile like Israel does. People hear profiling and immediately jump to the conclusion that it's racial. It's not. It may play a factor in the whole, but is not the source. If a 6'5" Swede robs a bank, does it make sense to question a 90 year old Irishman? Of course not. Israel uses a multi-tiered system and it has worked very well. The underwear bomber showed every red flag under the sun and the system failed to catch it.

We will always need some level of screening to pass into the secure areas at airports (certain items just are not conducive to the airworthiness of a plane). But much more can be done prior to boarding. As it is now, they're just grabbing people at random with no rhyme or reason. We've already seen articles of insane TSA searches that should never have happened.

It just hit me! Back during Bush's presidency, liberals were screeching like banshees about wire tapping. They were pissed because the gov't could (and was) tapping phone lines. Now there's a select few who say that this is no big deal. I guaran-fucking-tee you that had this happened under Bush, the left would be screaming bloody murder right now about all of this. I'd give up one week of my unemployment "earnings" to make this bet. I seriously would.

Somehow, patting down disabled, elderly improves security

John L. Smith
Las Vegas Journal
Nov. 21, 2010

Slumped in her wheelchair, Amelia looked my way and shrugged. It was happening. Again.

In the Transportation Security Administration checkpoint at the Reno-Tahoe International Airport recently, my 14-year-old was once more being patted down by uniformed strangers wearing rubber gloves.

Nearby, a line of adults streamed by, shoes and belts in hand, hustling to their flights.

She's an amazing young person, my kid. Amelia has survived brain and spinal cancer, debilitating nerve pain, and the challenging transition into life with a wheelchair.

She's my hero, and it makes my heart ache to see her humiliated by TSA workers who I am sure are only following orders.

Catcalls went out across the nation last week in reaction to the TSA's latest increase in airport security: far more invasive pat-downs by screeners and the phasing in of full-body scanning. They're feeling up cleavages and crotches from here to Miami -- supposedly at random.

The anxious public is peeved.

Airline pilots are outraged.

They have nothing on Amelia.

She is searched every time we fly. Every damn time.

We are told it is because she uses a wheelchair, despite the fact it is stowed with the luggage in the belly of the plane.

And every few times we fly, the wheelchair appears to set off the machine designed to detect explosive material residue. The screeners take a small piece of cloth and wipe it on the chair, then place it in the machine. If it detects a problem, it notifies security.

Trouble is, the machine is sensitive and screeners have to take care to make sure it is reset properly. If they fail to reset it, it goes off.

I know this because over the years some of the screeners have sheepishly admitted as much.

This time, bingo, she set off the machine. Under the security system now in place, that means in addition to the usual irritating pat-down, screeners return for a second, far more assertive and invasive search.

For the most part, I held my tongue. We all know speaking up to airport security invites further delay and potentially missing a flight.

I tersely reminded the security matron that she had neglected to reset her machine.

No matter. Rules are rules, and the rules said a supervisor had to be called. (That is just dumb - Tex)

A huddle ensued with a second and third TSA worker. A first call was made, then another, as they tried to find a supervisor to give us clearance.

In the interim, four other people were detained and chosen, supposedly at random, for a more thorough search. Trouble is, all five were female.

One woman appeared to be pushing 80. (a real threat that woman must be - Tex)

Another, in her 60s, cringed as her breasts were officially fondled and her waistband was explored. She fretted about missing a scheduled flight while the TSA underlings searched for their supervisor.

They have enough authority to feel my kid's crotch, but not enough to admit their machine had malfunctioned. For that it takes a team meeting and phone calls -- after that second more invasive search.

Meanwhile, we're now told the future use of full-body scanners at airports will improve security.

Will the full-body scanner really be preferable to the double-pat-down-crotch-and-cleavage-exploration-with-fingers-under-the-waistband maneuver?

I suppose you can't be too careful with all the disabled freshman high school girl terrorist suspects wheeling around these days.

Yeah, sure.

Fact is, I'm all for airport security. Most TSA personnel we've encountered have been as sensitive as their jobs allow. We generally endure the security pat-downs that accompany her wheelchair use without much complaint.

But at what point do the so-called experts stop harassing the disabled and elderly and start using good judgment when it comes to choosing whom to search?

There are words to describe the latest airport security changes, but Amelia is too polite to say them.

TexasBlue wrote:My whole point is profiling. You profile like Israel does. People hear profiling and immediately jump to the conclusion that it's racial. It's not. It may play a factor in the whole, but is not the source. If a 6'5" Swede robs a bank, does it make sense to question a 90 year old Irishman? Of course not. Israel uses a multi-tiered system and it has worked very well. The underwear bomber showed every red flag under the sun and the system failed to catch it.

We will always need some level of screening to pass into the secure areas at airports (certain items just are not conducive to the airworthiness of a plane). But much more can be done prior to boarding. As it is now, they're just grabbing people at random with no rhyme or reason. We've already seen articles of insane TSA searches that should never have happened.

You just proved my point. All a Muslim bomber needs to do to escape detection is to dress like a Sikh. All an Irish bomber needs to do is disguise his accent.

TexasBlue wrote:It just hit me! Back during Bush's presidency, liberals were screeching like banshees about wire tapping. They were pissed because the gov't could (and was) tapping phone lines. Now there's a select few who say that this is no big deal. I guaran-fucking-tee you that had this happened under Bush, the left would be screaming bloody murder right now about all of this. I'd give up one week of my unemployment "earnings" to make this bet. I seriously would.

My position would be the same regardless.

TexasBlue wrote:It just hit me! Back during Bush's presidency, liberals were screeching like banshees about wire tapping. They were pissed because the gov't could (and was) tapping phone lines. Now there's a select few who say that this is no big deal. I guaran-fucking-tee you that had this happened under Bush, the left would be screaming bloody murder right now about all of this. I'd give up one week of my unemployment "earnings" to make this bet. I seriously would.

And conservatives were talking about "sacrifices that have to be made", etc. Just as hypocritical as the left that's screaming about it now.

What the problem with profiling is, is that all the terrorist has to do is make himself look western. Like I said, some of the terrorists in Germany are in fact Germans and have no Arab ancestry. They would not be profiled and would therefore have a huge advantage in trying to bomb a plane.

The_Amber_Spyglass wrote:You just proved my point. All a Muslim bomber needs to do to escape detection is to dress like a Sikh. All an Irish bomber needs to do is disguise his accent.

It's more than just what someone looks like. Actions say a lot. Interviews (as Israel does) makes a difference.

Seriously, do you think that these examples in these stories I've posted are necessary? 14 yr old girls confined to wheel chairs? Old men with bladder problems and extensions? 80 yr old ladies? C'mon.

The_Amber_Spyglass wrote:

TexasBlue wrote:It just hit me! Back during Bush's presidency, liberals were screeching like banshees about wire tapping. They were pissed because the gov't could (and was) tapping phone lines. Now there's a select few who say that this is no big deal. I guaran-fucking-tee you that had this happened under Bush, the left would be screaming bloody murder right now about all of this. I'd give up one week of my unemployment "earnings" to make this bet. I seriously would.

My position would be the same regardless.

You're one of the few. But I'm speaking of our left wingers here in the USA since they had more reason to hate Bush than the general world population.

BubbleBliss wrote:And conservatives were talking about "sacrifices that have to be made", etc. Just as hypocritical as the left that's screaming about it now.

Who? Name some. It certainly wasn't me or people who think like I do. I was against that at the time also.

BubbleBliss wrote:What the problem with profiling is, is that all the terrorist has to do is make himself look western. Like I said, some of the terrorists in Germany are in fact Germans and have no Arab ancestry. They would not be profiled and would therefore have a huge advantage in trying to bomb a plane.

You can make all the examples of Germany all you want and they're relevant to your situation there. It isn't here where I live. It doesn't apply.

Are you serious? It's not only in Germany, the possibility of 'white' people becoming terrorists is the same in the US as it is everywhere. Not to mention those Arabs that don't look particularly Arab but could as well be taken for an Italian or any other kind of southern European. Then there are those from North Africa. Are you suggesting that Blacks and Arabs are profiled?

And I'll get back to you about those who were talking about the "sacrifices" that have to be made.

BubbleBliss wrote:
Are you serious? It's not only in Germany, the possibility of 'white' people becoming terrorists is the same in the US as it is everywhere. Not to mention those Arabs that don't look particularly Arab but could as well be taken for an Italian or any other kind of southern European. Then there are those from North Africa. Are you suggesting that Blacks and Arabs are profiled?

And I'll get back to you about those who were talking about the "sacrifices" that have to be made.

Yeah, I'm saying we profile. I've been saying this for the last day in this thread (and you're now realizing it). And don't come at me with a white supremacist argument.

Every one of the people who have tried to commit acts of terrorism in THIS country in the last few years have been either people of color (undie bomber) or Arab.

What I'm saying is that profiling is easy to work around as a terrorist. That's what Matt and I have been trying to say.

What about the guy who shot up the military base in Texas? He didn't look particularly Arab, he looked like an average American. He could have been Arab, Italian, Spanish, etc.

BubbleBliss wrote:
What I'm saying is that profiling is easy to work around as a terrorist. That's what Matt and I have been trying to say.

What about the guy who shot up the military base in Texas? He didn't look particularly Arab, he looked like an average American. He could have been Arab, Italian, Spanish, etc.

Then you profile based on that.



I'm sick and tired of the politically correct baloney. Either start looking for people who are going to commit these crimes or stop with the stupid security measures all together.

This video from a TV stations evening report shows one woman slammed to the floor for arguing with a TSA agent. Another with a 71 year-old man with a knee implant describing how TSA pulled down his pants. A 16 year-old girl with a prosthetic leg has her pants removed. And.... then there’s a woman describes how TSA forced her to cut off her nipple rings with pliers before she could board a plane.

Yep. We just need to shut up and put up with it all, don't we?

And then there's this from the ACLU of all organizations. They've never been a bastion of conservatism or standing up for them in many cases. Yet on their web site they say;

November 17, 2010

Airport security has been a major focus of security efforts since 9/11, and rightly so. However, the government's approach to keeping our skies safe has often been marked by an unfortunate focus on high-tech gimmicks and identity-based security — and, more recently, highly invasive pat-downs — that not only threaten American values but also fall short as an effective way to secure aviation.

The government should enact procedures that pose the least threat to our civil liberties and are also proven to be effective. Routine full body scanning, embarrassingly intimate pat-downs and racial profiling do not fit those criteria. The government must act quickly to take all reasonable steps to close any holes in our security, but it must also act wisely and in a manner consistent with our values.

http://www.aclu.org/technology-and-liberty/airport-security