Egypt starts to turn bloody

Egypt protests turn nasty as Mubarak’s thugs move in


By Nigel Horne
LAST UPDATED 2:02 PM, FEBRUARY 2, 2011 Share

The picture in central Cairo has suddenly changed in the last few hours. Thousands of Egyptians loyal to President Mubarak - including secret police in plainclothes, according to some reports - have entered Tahrir Square and started fighting the pro-democracy demonstrators who want Mubarak out.

Some of them are riding horses and camels. There has been bloodshed reported, and opposition leader Mohamed ElBaradei told the BBC at 1.30 pm UK time that he fears Tahrir Square "will turn into a bloodbath".

ElBaradei believes the majority of the pro-Mubarak forces are thugs in the government's pay. Al-Jazeera TV claims its reporters have seen police ID cards taken from the pro-Mubarak supporters.

The Daily Telegraph's correspondent Colin Freeman contacted London with this vivid picture:

"People coming into Tahrir Square on horseback and on camels - it's getting very heated. Stones are flying everywhere. People getting attacked. The people on horses and camels are behaving like mounted police, backing up the pro-Mubarak forces.

"The sense in the crowd is that this is deliberate by the security forces - an attempt to spark violence and say 'this is what happens when you haven't got a government'."

The army has called on the protesters to return home and accept that Mubarak is going to stay in power until September, when he promises to stand down. But many believe it's a trick and very few of the protesters are prepared to accept Mubarak's "long goodbye". They want him gone immediately.

As my colleague, Philip Jacobson, wrote this morning for The First Post, the fact that President Obama's envoy was unable to persuade Mubarak to go immediately was bound to create a power vacuum. That vacuum has been filled very quickly by violence. There are now fears that what appeared to be a relatively peaceful people's coup will now turn extremely nasty.

The wealthy middle-class do not plan to throw their comfortable lifestyles away quite so quickly. We won't see the men in silk suits on Tahrir Square, but there are plenty of thugs happy to do their bidding.


Read more: http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/74566,news-comment,news-politics,egypt-protests-turn-nasty-as-mubaraks-thugs-move-into-cairo#ixzz1CoNwr86C

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Let's hope the army will keep it's word and protect the Egyptian people , anyways it's fun watching history play out, inside one's TV

If the army sticks to its word and defends the right of the protestors and ends up firing on the secret police, we will have a civil war on our hands and I suspect, a very short one.

I wouldn't describe it as fun, not when people are dying.

Aljazeera is back up.. so even America can watch the battle for Egypt live.. click on image


the fun part is watching history play out in front of one's eyes.. not watching people die

I don't see how you can describe any part of this as "fun." Part of watching this history play out IS the deaths that result from the turmoil in Egypt. I cannot fathom how watching it play out is "fun" for anyone.

What are you going to say Cable if the new govt turns out to be as USA friendly as Mubarak? And abides by the pace treaty with Israel?

TexasBlue wrote:What are you going to say Cable if the new govt turns out to be as USA friendly as Mubarak? And abides by the pace treaty with Israel?

as long as the Egyptian people are truly free to chose a government which no longer suppressed it's own people, I and the world would be happy.. but as the last 30 years of USA friendly govt has been very suppressive of the people of Egypt, I think America would have a lot to prove to the Egyptian people that the USA did not want to continue to suppress them again. and America would go a long way to prove this, if it did not talk about supporting Vice President Omar Suleiman.. Suleiman the torturer http://www.counterpunch.org/soldz01312011.html

I was not sure where I should post this disturbing new twist on the Egyptian revolt.. I did not think I should start a new thread, other wise there would be an endless list of threads all on the same subject, but it would mean that we would need to watch for up-dates on a subject.. I ended up putting it here cos.. if Suleiman the torture has his way Egypt will get a lot bloodier
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Egypt VP: Protests cannot be allowed to go on long
By MAGGIE MICHAEL and SARAH EL DEEB Associated Press © 2011 The Associated Press
Feb. 8, 2011, 4:33PM

CAIRO — Vice President Omar Suleiman warned Tuesday that "we can't put up with" continued protests in Tahrir for a long time, saying the crisis must be ended as soon as possible in a sharply worded sign of increasing regime impatience with 16 days of mass demonstrations.

Suleiman said there will be "no ending of the regime" and no immediate departure for President Hosni Mubarak, according to the state news agency MENA, reporting on a meeting between the vice president and the heads of state and independent newspapers.

He told them the regime wants dialogue to resolve protesters' demands for democratic reform, adding in a veiled warning, "We don't want to deal with Egyptian society with police tools."

At one point in the roundtable meeting, Suleiman warned that the alternative to dialogue "is that a coup happens, which would mean uncalculated and hasty steps, including lots of irrationalities. We don't want to reach that point, to protect Egypt."

Pressed by the editors to explain the comment, he said he did not mean a military coup but that "a force that is unprepared for rule" could overturn state institutions, said Amr Khafagi, editor-in-chief of the privately-owned Shorouk daily, who attended the briefing. "He doesn't mean it in the classical way."

"The presence of the protesters in Tahrir Square and some satellite stations insulting Egypt and belittling it makes citizens hesitant to go to work," he said. We can't put up with this for a long time, and this crisis must be ended as soon as possible.

He warned that calls by some protesters for a campaign of civil disobedience are "very dangerous for society and we can't put up with this at all."

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/top/all/7418581.html

The Muslim Brotherhood uncovered
In an exclusive Guardian interview, Egypt's Islamist opposition group sets out its demands

Jack Shenker in Cairo and Brian Whitaker guardian.co.uk, Tuesday 8 February 2011 21.39 GMT

The downstairs entrance is littered with rubbish, and the stairwell is dark and cramped. Only the opulence of the second-floor door – a broad, ornate colossus of a door – offers any clue as to what lies inside this unprepossessing apartment block in an unfashionable corner of Cairo's Roda Island.

Behind the door are the headquarters of the Muslim Brotherhood, the movement that – depending on who you believe – is about to either give Egypt the Taliban treatment or help steer the country through transition to a pluralist democracy.

Given the international opprobrium that its name often inspires, perhaps it's not surprising that the brotherhood prefers a low-key, almost shabby feel for its headquarters. "We are not in the forefront," smiles Essam el-Erian, a senior brotherhood leader. "We keep a step behind."

A step behind is exactly where the brotherhood has been accused of being during the past two weeks of momentous upheaval in Egypt, two weeks in which the world's oldest Islamist organisation found itself out on the sidelines as a new political reality unfolded before its eyes.

When the call first went out for mass pro-change protests on 25 January, the brotherhood responded as it always has to any major anti-government activity originating outside its own sphere of influence – it dithered. With that dithering came a loss of credibility, as the demonstrations gathered momentum and coalesced into nothing short of a revolutionary challenge to 30 years of entrenched dictatorship.

Now, though – having been wrong-footed and overtaken by largely non-religious young activists – the brotherhood is seeking to regain its standing as the country's leading opposition movement, without turning either local or western opinion against it.

Playing catch-up has seen the brotherhood engaging in dialogue with a government that has long kept it outlawed – thus gaining a legal legitimacy denied since 1954 – while at the same time trying to avoid accusations of a sell-out from the hundreds of thousands who continue to pack Tahrir Square and who want to see President Hosni Mubarak gone before any negotiations towards a democratic transition can begin.

"There is no compromise," Erian (above right) told the Guardian on Tuesday. "We reassess our position every day, maybe every hour. We give them some time to discuss … [Those around Mubarak] are arranging their affairs because he was a symbol of the regime and he was controlling them. They need some time. We give them this chance. A week."

The "Brother Muslimhood" – as the vice-president, Omar Suleiman, repeatedly called it this week during a TV interview with Christiane Amanpour – also faces a potentially more difficult tightrope walk internationally.

Its need is to position itself at the forefront of Egypt's post-Mubarak future without sounding alarm bells in western capitals, where Mubarak's warnings about the dire threats posed by the brotherhood have often been taken at face value. It's a dilemma that Erian is only too aware of. "Mr Obama, Mrs Clinton, Mr Cameron, Mr Sarkozy, when they see us at the front they say we are another Khomeini, another Iranian [revolution]," he says.

But placating foreign powers was not what Hassan al-Banna founded the movement for in 1928. It was Britain's presence in Egypt that led to the brotherhood's creation. Six Egyptian workers employed in the military camps of Ismailiyya in the Suez Canal Zone visited Banna, a young teacher who they had heard preaching in mosques and cafes on the need for "Islamic renewal".

"Arabs and Muslims have no status and no dignity," they complained, according to the brotherhood's official history. "They are no more than mere hirelings belonging to the foreigners … We are unable to perceive the road to action as you perceive it …" Banna later wrote that the Europeans had expropriated the resources of Muslim lands and corrupted them with "murderous germs": "They imported their half-naked women into these regions, together with their liquors, their theatres, their dance halls, their amusements, their stories, their newspapers, their novels, their whims, their silly games, and their vices … The day must come when the castles of this materialistic civilisation will be laid low upon the heads of their inhabitants."

Banna argued that Islam provided a complete solution, with divine guidance on everything from worship and spiritual matters to the law, politics and social organisation. He established an evening school for the working classes which impressed the general inspector of education and by 1931 the brotherhood had constructed its first mosque – for which the Suez Canal Company is said to have provided some of the funds.

Banna was offering a religious alternative to the more secular and western-inspired nationalist ideas that had so far failed to liberate Egypt from the clutches of foreign powers, and the popular appeal of his message was undeniable: by 1938, the movement had 300 branches across the country, as well as others in Lebanon and Syria.

During the second world war, British attitudes towards the brotherhood – and those of the British-backed Egyptian monarchy – ranged from suppression to covert support, since it was viewed as a possible counterweight against the secular nationalist party, the Wafd, and the communists. In 1948, the movement sent volunteers to fight in Palestine against the establishment of Israel and there were numerous bomb attacks on Jews in Cairo – at least some of which are attributed to the brotherhood.

A year later, members assassinated a judge who had jailed a Muslim Brother for attacking British soldiers. The Egyptian government ordered the brotherhood to be dissolved and many of its members were arrested. The prime minister was then assassinated by a Brother and in February 1949 Banna was himself gunned down in the streets of Cairo, apparently on the order of the authorities.

The brotherhood was also implicated in an attempt to assassinate President Gamal Nasser in 1954, but it has long since renounced violence as a political means in Egypt. By the 1980s it was making determined efforts to join the political mainstream, making a series of alliances with the Wafd, the Labour and Liberal parties. In the 2000 election it won 17 parliamentary seats. Five years later, with candidates standing as independents for legal reasons, it won 88 seats – 20% of the total and its best electoral result to date.

"There can be no question that genuine democracy must prevail," Mohammad Mursi, a brotherhood spokesman, wrote in an article for Tuesday's Guardian. "While the Muslim Brotherhood is unequivocal regarding its basis in Islamic thought, it rejects any attempt to enforce any ideological line upon the Egyptian people."

Although the Brotherhood appears to have firmly embraced democracy, the means for reconciling that with its religious principles are not entirely clear: the issue of God's sovereignty versus people's sovereignty looks to have been fudged rather than resolved.

The Brotherhood continues to maintain that "Islam is the solution" while at the same time demonstrating a kind of pragmatism that suggests Islam may not be a complete solution after all.

One example is jizya, the poll tax on non-Muslims, which is clearly prescribed in the Qur'an. The original idea was that non-Muslims, since they did not serve in the military, should pay for their protection by Muslims.

Today, most Muslims regard jizya as obsolete.In order to follow Qur'anic principles strictly, though, it would have to be reinstated. In 1997, the Muslim Brotherhood's Supreme Guide at the time, Mustafa Mashhur, did suggest reintroducing it but, in a country with around 6 million Christians, this caused uproar and the movement later backtracked. For non-Islamist Muslims, jizya presents no great problem: they can justify its abolition on the basis of historicity – that the circumstances in which the tax was imposed no longer exist today. For Islamists, though, this is much more difficult because the words of the Qur'an and the practices of the earliest Muslims form the core of their ideology.

The late Nasr Abu Zayd, a liberal theologian who was hounded out of Egypt by Islamists in the 1990s, regarded historicity as the crux of the issue. "If they concede historicity, all the ideology will just fall down," he said, "… the entire ideology of the word of God."

He argued that the brotherhood's semi-illegal status allows it to agitate and sloganise without needing to face the realities of everyday politics or having its policies subjected to much critical scrutiny.

Years of repression at the hands of the Egyptian authorities have made the brotherhood more interested in human rights than many might expect from an Islamist organisation. When the European parliament criticised Egypt's record in 2008, the Mubarak regime responded with fury, while Hussein Ibrahim, the brotherhood's parliamentary spokesman, sided with Europe.

"The issue of human rights has become a global language," he said. "Although each country has its own particulars, respect of human rights is now a concern for all peoples" – though he specifically excluded gay rights.

Rather than deploring criticism from abroad, he said, the Egyptian government would do better to improve its human rights record, which would leave less room for foreigners to cause embarrassment.

Erian, an outspoken reformist on the brotherhood's guidance council, is at pains to sketch out the limits of his organisation's political ambitions. He insists that it has no plans to run a candidate for the presidency, though any broad-backed opposition "unity" candidate will obviously need the brotherhood's approval.

But he goes further and says the brotherhood will not even seek a majority in parliament – a far cry from the predictions of many Washington-based analysts that it is waiting in the wings to seize control of the most populous Arab country.

"If we can build a wide coalition instead, this would be good," Erian says. "This is our strategy for many reasons: not to frighten others, inside or outside, and also because this is a country destroyed, destroyed by Mubarak and his family – why would the rebuilding task be only for us? It's not our task alone, it's the job of all Egyptians." He adds: "The Muslim Brothers are a special case because we are not seeking power through violent or military means like other Islamic organisations that might be violent. We are a peaceful organisation; we work according to the constitution and the law."

Khalil Al Anani, an expert on Egypt's political Islamists at Durham University, points out that during the protests the Brotherhood has made no specific political demands relating to its own goals.


"At the high level, they have made a smart tactical move in mandating ElBaradei to be a spokesman for Egyptian opposition forces, because it's a signal to the west. The Brotherhood don't want the west to diminish this revolution, and hence they don't want to give the west any excuse to support Mubarak. By putting ElBaradei up they avoid giving them that excuse."


Although outsiders often use words like "smart" and "savvy" when describing the brotherhood, some regard its missteps during the initial 25 January protests as an example of its incompetence. "In 83 years it has botched every opportunity," anthropologist Scott Atran wrote last week. "Its failure to support the initial uprising in Cairo on January 25 has made it marginal to the spirit of revolt now spreading through the Arab world."

But if the brotherhood is not seeking political power, what is its purpose? Josh Stacher, an expert on the movement, says it should be viewed in the context of its earlier anti-colonial struggle: "It's very much about providing Egyptian answers to Egyptian problems. Also, it's organised on a grassroots level. It offers people opportunities in a way that the Egyptian state doesn't. It's almost a mini parallel state without a military."

Among its members there is a division between those who want the group to concentrate on dawa, or social evangelism, and those who see political power as the ultimate goal. The former include people such as the current conservative supreme guide, Mohamed Badie, who see formal politics as only one part of an overall toolkit in the challenge to make Egyptian society more thoroughly Islamic.

It's a distinction that has long kept the brotherhood fragmented, leaving it more as an umbrella group for Islamist political forces of many different shades than as the monolithic vanquisher of liberal secular values so often portrayed in the international media. Erian acknowledges the existence of internal dissent, but claims the holistic nature of the Muslim Brotherhood, and indeed of Islam as a religion, means that these different outlooks can be a source of strength rather than a weakness.

"Islam is one unit – jobs or tasks can be divided," he says. "It's like the state – one unit, but with 40 or so ministers all doing their jobs. It's the same with us. We are ready to play a political role, but under the umbrella of a wider structure."

He goes on to compare the Brotherhood's workings to those of the individual. "I am an imam in the mosque near my home. I am a politician. I am a representative to the media. I am a physician – I go to the lab every night to look through microscopes. You cannot divide me. If time pressures push me towards one aspect, the others still can't be neglected."

As Egypt has changed over the past fortnight, with young people propelling themselves dramatically into the heart of the country's political future, so too has the brotherhood, where an ageing leadership clique has been challenged by a fresher generation of members, keen to take a more confrontational stance with the Mubarak regime and quicker to forge alliances with forces the brotherhood have traditionally not been warm towards, such as Coptic Christian and women's groups.

"The reformist wing within the brotherhood will be strengthened, at the expense of the conservative old guard," said Khalil al-Anani, an expert on Egypt's political Islamists at Durham University.

"The Mubarak regime was very skilful at exaggerating the influence of the Brotherhood and painting them as a threat to Egyptian society and to the west," he added. "It was the pretext for Mubarak's rule, and it was a lie. I think that if Egypt held free and fair elections tomorrow the Brotherhood would not get a majority; it would enjoy a significant presence in parliament but the overall makeup of seats would be pluralistic. This is the time for the west to rethink its attitudes to the Muslim Brotherhood. If they don't start assessing the weight of the brotherhood accurately, they will make major miscalculations in the coming days."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/feb/08/egypt-muslim-brotherhood-uncovered

Wasn't it the Muslim Brotherhood that abducted a coach load full of tourists in the mid 90s and executed them at Hatshepsut's temple? If so, Mubarak's government was hardly exaggerating the threat they posed.

The_Amber_Spyglass wrote:Wasn't it the Muslim Brotherhood that abducted a coach load full of tourists in the mid 90s and executed them at Hatshepsut's temple? If so, Mubarak's government was hardly exaggerating the threat they posed.

yes and it was the Brotherhood who where the first and foremost helper after the earthquake destroyed areas of poor housing 5 years ago.. I am no defender of the Brotherhood but I did see it has the main opposition to Mubarak.. that was until the revolt of the Egyptian people

That doesn't mean they were ever a viable alternative. As far as I understand it, most of their support is in Qena and central provinces. I'm not sure they have much support elsewhere.

Just over 11 years ago imy brother and I took an overnight train to Cairo from Luxor and passed through Qena. Sadly, the trains have stopped running that route because of Islamist trouble there in recent years.

The_Amber_Spyglass wrote:That doesn't mean they were ever a viable alternative. As far as I understand it, most of their support is in Qena and central provinces. I'm not sure they have much support elsewhere.

Just over 11 years ago imy brother and I took an overnight train to Cairo from Luxor and passed through Qena. Sadly, the trains have stopped running that route because of Islamist trouble there in recent years.

I don't see the Brotherhood as the alternative to Egyptian dictatorship but I do see the Brotherhood as part of a democratic Egypt.. like them or no, they are part of Egypt.. in the same way the IRA where part of Northern Ireland and Northern Ireland could not said to be democratic until the IRA took their place.. and in the same way as the IRA do not control Northern Ireland, the Brotherhood will not control Egypt.

For once cable2, you are absolutely right.

I also agree with cable2, but I'm not going to qualify that with a back-handed compliment :p

I do not see this ending well for anyone I'm afraid.

BecMacFeegle wrote:I also agree with cable2, but I'm not going to qualify that with a back-handed compliment :p

:p

dblboggie wrote:I do not see this ending well for anyone I'm afraid.

It would seem that months ago my ill feeling about the uprising in Egypt might yet be justified.


Egyptian activists 'to form Nazi party', newspaper reports
By YAAKOV LAPPIN
05/26/2011 16:41

'Al-Masry Al-Youm' report says Facebook pages launched to attract followers; Nazi parties operated secretly in Egypt during Mubarak regime.


A group of Egyptian political activists have announced plans to set up a local version “of the Nazi party,” an Egyptian newspaper reported on Thursday.

Citing a leftist Egyptian news portal, the Al-Masry Al-Youm daily said that “the party’s founding deputy is a former military official,” and that the party would be aimed at bringing “together prominent figures from the Egyptian society.”

The report cited founding member Emad Abdel Sattar as saying that the unestablished party “believes in vesting all powers in the president after selecting him or her carefully,” and that “preparations are under way to choose the most competent person to represent the party.”

Almasry Alyoum added that an Egyptian Nazi party “operated secretly under former President Hosni Mubarak, whose regime prevented party leaders from carrying out their activities freely.”

The newspaper said it could not verify the report, but said it found two Facebook pages that appeared recently under the title of “the Egyptian Nazi Party,” which have so far attracted 70 followers.

Members are “increasing at an unexpected rate, and several people came to ask about the nature of the party and its plans,” the report said.

The party has a one-year plan to develop Egypt – unlike the “marginalized liberal parties, which are like dead bodies,” a source was quoted as saying.

The idea to start it came after some fundamentalist-religious waves emerged, which, according to the source, created a state of chaos, and led to the burning of churches, the destruction of shrines and assaults on unarmed civilians.

Responding to the report, Dr. Mordechai Kedar, of Bar-Ilan University’s Begin-Sadat Center for Strategic Studies, said Egypt was going through a highly turbulent period, adding that all manner of bizarre individuals were launching Facebook groups and attracting members.

Historically, he said, the German Nazi party saw three attempts to copy it in the Arab world in the 1930s in Lebanon, Iraq and Egypt. The Egyptian party of that time was led by former president Anwar Sadat, who went on to sign a peace treaty with Israel in 1979.

“They were copying the extreme nationalism of Germany, before the Second World War, and before the word ‘Nazi’ became a coarse word,” Kedar said.

Irrespective of the unconfirmed report on “the Egyptian Nazi party,” Egyptian activists opposed to army rule in Egypt are planning to hold demonstrations on Friday, Kedar noted.

“Egypt is a country of 85 million people. Some activists want a second and a third revolution. No one knows where things are heading yet,” he said.

See original article HERE.

"accoridng to our source"... usually translates to "rumour has it".

The newspaper said it could not verify the report, but said it found two Facebook pages that appeared recently under the title of “the Egyptian Nazi Party,” which have so far attracted 70 followers.

Shit, I guess the Nazi uprising is already under way.

Does the fact that the KKK exists in the USA suggest that the KKK runs the country? This article is just an exercise in confirmation bias, they are seeing what they want to see and attempting to stir up emotive feelings in its largely JEWISH readership.

The_Amber_Spyglass wrote:"accoridng to our source"... usually translates to "rumour has it".

The newspaper said it could not verify the report, but said it found two Facebook pages that appeared recently under the title of “the Egyptian Nazi Party,” which have so far attracted 70 followers.

Shit, I guess the Nazi uprising is already under way.

Does the fact that the KKK exists in the USA suggest that the KKK runs the country? This article is just an exercise in confirmation bias, they are seeing what they want to see and attempting to stir up emotive feelings in its largely JEWISH readership.

My thoughts exactly.

The_Amber_Spyglass wrote:"accoridng to our source"... usually translates to "rumour has it".

The newspaper said it could not verify the report, but said it found two Facebook pages that appeared recently under the title of “the Egyptian Nazi Party,” which have so far attracted 70 followers.

Shit, I guess the Nazi uprising is already under way.

Does the fact that the KKK exists in the USA suggest that the KKK runs the country? This article is just an exercise in confirmation bias, they are seeing what they want to see and attempting to stir up emotive feelings in its largely JEWISH readership.

To hear some Democrats on the Hill, you'd think the Republican Party has been co-opted by the KKK...

But seriously speaking, I doubt that the Egyptian Nazi Party will garner any substantial or credible support, at least I should hope so. But remember it is just starting after an enormous upheaval in Egypt - much like the KKK in 1866 after the end of the Civil War here in the states, or the rise of the small Nazi movement in Germany after collapse of the German economy after WWI (and somewhat predicted by Maynard Keynes). Right now, Egyptian businessmen are fleeing the country with their cash because of soaring crime and political uncertainties. The Egyptian economy is currently in a shambles and the flight of capital is further exacerbating an already bleak economic picture with high inflation and unemployment. In the subsequent vacuum I think a more realistic threat is not a new Egyptian Nazi Party but the rise of the Muslim Brotherhood (the only politically organized group in the country) and the adoption of a fundamentalist Islamic government which would be inimical to democracy.

I said it back in February and I'll say it again... I do not see this as ending well for anyone right now.

That being said, how do you see it playing out? Are you more optimistic than I?