Some really warped opinions!

I read letters to the editor in the Minneapolis and Ft. Worth paper. I'm going to paste in the ones I find very disturbing.... as to how anyone can actually feel (or think) this way regarding OBL. Writers names will be omitted.

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From the Minneapolis paper

President Obama said that with Bin Laden's death, justice has been accomplished. But justice has not been accomplished; vengeance has.

Justice would have been done if we had captured Bin Laden and brought him before the International Criminal Court for the world to see his crimes, as we did at Nuremburg with the Nazi war criminals.

Justice is blindfolded so as to make her impartial, not so that she cannot see the truth.

Bin Laden has been killed, and there is cheering in the streets.

Do you recall the cheering in some parts of the world at the success of the 9/11 attacks? Do you recall your feelings about the people who celebrated those attacks?

Celebration may feel good for a short time, but it will harm us more than it will help us. I am sickened by the gleeful reaction of so many of my fellow Americans to this man's killing.

Violence has not solved their problems, and it will not solve ours. If we are to successfully share this planet, we will need to learn to become sensitive to the needs of others.

We need to start seeing other people.

From the Ft. Worth paper......

I was with mixed emotion Sunday night as I heard bin Laden had been killed. On one hand, I felt thankful that a symbol of terrorism had been eliminated; on the other hand, I felt frustrated that this meant he could never be tried in a court of law.

I believe that President Obama is the first Nobel Peace Laureate to order an assassination. To that, I suggest his Peace Prize be rescinded, or better yet, he should willingly give it back as his actions since receiving it have not indicated one iota of understanding what resolving conflict peacefully means.

By killing bin Laden, we also kill the possibility that he could ever come to trial and, most importantly, the possibility that bin Laden could stand before the world and acknowledge that his philosophy of terrorism and violence is wrong.

I believe we all want to live in a safe, peaceful world. How do we create a culture of peace in a society that accepts killing as a means to justify an end? It can't happen until we start teaching each other to live peaceful, nonviolent lives. And this won't happen as long as we continue to demonstrate killing as "justice."

The above writer is from the Peace and Justice Center in Arlington, Texas

We seem awfully proud of ourselves, even euphoric, for killing someone without the bother and inconvenience of a trial. Yeah, he was a bad boy, all right, but there are lots of bad boys in the world. How does this one measure up with our barbaric invasion of Iraq? How does he square with our killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians and driving millions more from their homes? How does he fit in with torture at Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib and Bagram? If bin Laden was a terrorist, what are we?

The president says the world is now a safer place. Should we all join hands in this fantasy?

Forty years ago, a friend brought me a Peanuts comic strip. Charlie Brown's team had won a baseball game; everyone was celebrating wildly. Except Charlie Brown. "I'm thinking how the other team must feel," he explained. It reminded my friend of me.

I haven't changed much. Today the wild jubilation over finally getting Osama bin Laden troubles me. Not because of how the other team must feel. But Navy SEALS in helicopters attacking his hiding place and shooting him in the head is serious business. Weighty. It's the unbridled celebration that troubles me.

It's not so much that it appears to be a naive "ding-dong the witch is dead" thing. Not so much that it seems a misleading mission accomplished thing. What troubles me most: it reminds me of street celebrations of suicide bombings or other dark deaths. I fear we've become like our enemy.

Assassinating or bringing bin Laden to justice is certainly not comparable to slaughtering innocents. But unfettered celebration of any death, headlines shouting, "We got him!", chanting "USA! USA!" like it's a soccer match? I don't want to be so glib and gleeful about killing. Not even this one.

It's not a game.

Deep stuff, huh? I'll hold back with the comments I really want to make.

TexasBlue wrote:Deep stuff, huh? I'll hold back with the comments I really want to make.

As will I. Real deep thinkers these are...

These comments are all rather naive and suggest an estrangement from the human condition, but these two in particular struck me as downright vile:

Do you recall the cheering in some parts of the world at the success of the 9/11 attacks? Do you recall your feelings about the people who celebrated those attacks?

How does this one measure up with our barbaric invasion of Iraq? How does he square with our killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians and driving millions more from their homes? How does he fit in with torture at Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib and Bagram? If bin Laden was a terrorist, what are we?

These comparisons betray a broken moral compass.

kronos wrote:These comments are all rather naive and suggest an estrangement from the human condition, but these two in particular struck me as downright vile:

Do you recall the cheering in some parts of the world at the success of the 9/11 attacks? Do you recall your feelings about the people who celebrated those attacks?

How does this one measure up with our barbaric invasion of Iraq? How does he square with our killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians and driving millions more from their homes? How does he fit in with torture at Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib and Bagram? If bin Laden was a terrorist, what are we?

These comparisons betray a broken moral compass.

Just so. Moral relativism is an ugly thing.

I agree whole heartedly with the majority of those comments. I am disturbed and frustrated by the out pouring of jubilation caused by bin Laden's execution. What possible justification is there for it?

Such celebrations have not been seen elsewhere in the world. The British are not dancing on the streets with a sense of jubilation that we have been avenged for 7/7. His death makes no difference, it may make things worse for a time. And if not his death, then the outpouring of glee on the streets of Washington and New York is going to stir up fresh resentment.

Trying to justify these celebrations as anything other than gleeful revenge and a sense that America has restored her honour seems, to me, impossible. After 9/11 there was a sense in the rest of the world that America was lumbering around seeking revenge like a wounded animal. Well, now you have your revenge. Let's see what it gets you. Ignore the warnings of the more mature and measured members of your society at your own peril.

You haven't had to live with terrorism as the rest of the world has for some time. This is not a game of goodies and baddies. The longer you continue with this notion, with the idea that it is civilised and justifiable to celebrate the death of your enemy, the rest of the world will look on with a sense of unease. This is childish and disgusting behaviour and it is time to grow up. These celebrations seem to me to be the absolute embodiment of what is wrong with America and it seems this feeling is growing.

You have executed a man - you have taken it upon yourselves to make this decision for the rest of the world when you were not the only ones to suffer from his actions. There was no trial. You are happy to compound the feelings of resentment which created this monster in the first place - and believe that you can scare people into not attacking you?

I am relieved to see these comments from some Americans.

dblboggie wrote:

TexasBlue wrote:

How does this one measure up with our barbaric invasion of Iraq? How does he square with our killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians and driving millions more from their homes? How does he fit in with torture at Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib and Bagram? If bin Laden was a terrorist, what are we?

These comparisons betray a broken moral compass.

Just so. Moral relativism is an ugly thing.

This isn't so much directed at you dbl but all three of you delighting in the death of bin Laden. This is nothing to celebrate; as far as I am concerned you should be reflecting on the following:
1. Remembering the innocent people this man ordered murdered in the name of his warped ideals
2. The west's role in creating this monster in the first place
3. How self-serving western foreign policy allowed such a man to become so popular after we stopped supporting his insurgency against the Soviets

Now I don't agree with this article but I find these celebrations distasteful to say the least. People are going to hate you even more and the cycle of violence will continue. Do we really want that? Do we want to continue answering bombs with bigger bombs, celebrating each death until we're all dead? Is that what we want, to wipe each other out secure in the knowledge that all this was their fault?

Is vengeance so much more important to you than justice?

Bec, Matt: you're both entitled to your feelings. Do not presume to lecture me as to what my feelings should be, or what I "should be reflecting on." It's offensive.

I lost a childhood friend on 9/11, now the man who killed her is dead. You do not get to tell me how to feel about that. I am entitled to my reaction, thanks. I did not hoot and holler when I saw the news, but I was damn happy inside, and I refuse to apologize for that.

An eye for an eye and soon the whole world is blind.

I ask again: did you want justice or revenge?

I think I should just not participate in this discussion, because I'm finding it hard to write comments that don't require immediate self-moderation.

I'm not trying to pick a fight with anyone here, but I just want to understand the mentality of revelling in violence and these revellers are fuelling hatred of America based on the notion - that already existed - that Uncle Sam can do whatever it damn well pleases... might is right.

Take it from a country that has lived with the spectre of terrorism for about a century... that continued escalating violence only leads to more hatred and violence. In the end only innocent people on both sides will suffer. I'm very sorry you lost a friend that day but if we do not put ourselves above Al Qaeda morally in actions instead of just in words, this problem will never go away.

All I can say is that if the man was captured and brought to trial, it would've been a fuqqin' circus like none we've ever seen. I remember how it went for Slobodan Milošević. It was disgraceful. A trial for bin Laden would've been shark infested waters for his followers to feed in.

Btw, I didn't jump for joy on the news either. I thought, "Good," and went to bed.

The_Amber_Spyglass wrote:An eye for an eye and soon the whole world is blind.

I ask again: did you want justice or revenge?

Does it matter what he wanted? He was not the one on the ground pulling the trigger. He was not the one in the situation room giving the order to pull the trigger.

He is as entitled to his feelings on this matter as you are to yours. And sitting in judgment of his or anyone else's feelings on this matter is, you must admit, a bit arrogant at best.

I have a son who has been repeatedly put into harms way in the Middle East thanks to bin Laden and I, for one, am extremely happy that this mass murderer has been killed.

And just to set you straight, I was not out doing an end-zone dance as you implied.

I haven't judged anybody's feelings here. I was commenting on the jingoism of the people celebrating in New York and Washington. That behaviour is not helpful and will only fuel more of the same problems. And I said I find it distasteful that people are celebrating his death with such jingoistic glee. Is the desire for vengeance so much more important than justice?

Ever escalating violence... is that what these protestors want? Another 9/11? More civilian deaths? More soldiers killed by IEDs? More Jihadist recruits? More suicide bombs? Because they will hate you more. They will not respect you, nor come to fear you, but hate you. You need only look as far as Northern Ireland to see what escalating violence achieves.

Hearts and minds will never be won by flexing muscles, waving guns around and having a might is right attitude.

Seriously, why is everybody so determined to completely fucking misrepresent everything I am saying?!

The_Amber_Spyglass wrote:Seriously, why is everybody so determined to completely fucking misrepresent everything I am saying?!

Because we like you!

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The_Amber_Spyglass wrote:I was commenting on the jingoism of the people celebrating in New York and Washington. That behaviour is not helpful and will only fuel more of the same problems. And I said I find it distasteful that people are celebrating his death with such jingoistic glee. Is the desire for vengeance so much more important than justice?

Their city was attacked; some of them may have lost loved ones. I don't think it's my place to tell them how to react. Whether or not their reaction is civilized or "helpful," I think it's natural and human to rejoice in a situation like this.

For me, personally, it has nothing to do with jingoism. I'd be just as happy if the Portuguese Team Six, if such exists, killed bin Laden. My happiness about this death concerns the recipient, not the giver.

The_Amber-Spyglass wrote:Ever escalating violence... is that what these protestors want? Another 9/11? More civilian deaths? More soldiers killed by IEDs? More Jihadist recruits? More suicide bombs? Because they will hate you more. They will not respect you, nor come to fear you, but hate you. You need only look as far as Northern Ireland to see what escalating violence achieves.

For celebrating the death of a mass murderer, they'll hate us more? That only makes sense if they had considerable sympathy for the mass murderer to begin with. In which case, they hated us already (which they did). In which case, the reveling in New York may provide them with another excuse for their pre-existing hatred, but it cannot be said to be a cause of that hatred in any way.

kronos wrote:Bec, Matt: you're both entitled to your feelings. Do not presume to lecture me as to what my feelings should be, or what I "should be reflecting on." It's offensive.

In a thread based entirely upon judging the feelings expressed by others and describing them under the header of 'warped', I would say that's a bit rich.

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It's all opinion, Bec, which everyone is entitled to.

Also, keep in mind that we haven't lived under the threat of terrorism at our doorstep like you Brits have (Ireland and the IRA, etc). The 9/11 attacks brought things home. Everything else is a world away when you think about it. A terror attack on Marine barracks in Beirut doesn't hit home when you see it on TV like we did way back when.

Just trying to explain how we feel over here.

The_Amber_Spyglass wrote:I haven't judged anybody's feelings here. I was commenting on the jingoism of the people celebrating in New York and Washington. That behaviour is not helpful and will only fuel more of the same problems. And I said I find it distasteful that people are celebrating his death with such jingoistic glee. Is the desire for vengeance so much more important than justice?

See below on the judgment part of this. As for the celebrating, can not justice be celebrated? Who says these celebrants were celebrating vengeance? You? Could they not have been celebrating the justice of what took place? Did you survey them as to what they were celebrating? Did anyone? Who decided this was "jingoistic glee?" You? Who said the desire for vengeance was more important than justice? Was there a participant who spoke for the whole crowd that said this? Or is this just an assumption on your part without any corroborative evidence?

The_Amber_Spyglass wrote:Ever escalating violence... is that what these protestors want? Another 9/11? More civilian deaths? More soldiers killed by IEDs? More Jihadist recruits? More suicide bombs? Because they will hate you more. They will not respect you, nor come to fear you, but hate you. You need only look as far as Northern Ireland to see what escalating violence achieves.

Hearts and minds will never be won by flexing muscles, waving guns around and having a might is right attitude.

Do you honestly believe that we can win the "hearts and minds" Muslim fundamentalists? Really? Have you won the hearts and minds of the Muslims in Britain? Has France won the hearts and minds of Muslims living in their country? Has Germany? Spain? America? NO! We have not! I can say this pretty much unequivocally. Yes, there are moderate Muslims in all these places and many, many more. But has Western civilization, Western values of freedom and secular government ever won the hearts and minds of Muslims? Look at the many Muslim nations. How many of them have constitutions based on the Qur'an and Sharia law? I'll tell you right now... a vast majority of those Muslim nations have constitutions that enshrine the Qur'an and Sharia law. And not a single one of those nations "respect" a single Western nation. Muslims are not Irish Catholics, not by a long shot. A does NOT equal A here. The IRA and Muslims are not apples and apples.

And more to the point, how do you suppose that Western civilization can win the hearts and minds of Muslims? Just what would you do to win their hearts and minds? Would you toss your traditional laws out the window allow them to exercise Sharia law in your country? Please, tell me, how does one accomplish this winning of hearts and minds? I am all ears - as is the rest of Western civilization.

The_Amber_Spyglass wrote:Seriously, why is everybody so determined to completely fucking misrepresent everything I am saying?!

Well you did say the following:

The_Amber_Spyglass wrote:This isn't so much directed at you dbl but all three of you delighting in the death of bin Laden. This is nothing to celebrate; as far as I am concerned you should be reflecting on the following:

This does indeed sound judgmental to me. I prefer to believe that I can determine for myself what I should be celebrating or reflecting on.

And to think that there is anything that we could do to make these Muslim fundamentalists "hate us" less is naive. They hate us for who we are... period. They do not believe in representative republicanism, democracy, secular government, the separation of church and state, individual or economic freedom. None of these things are values embraced by Islam. Islam is not just a religion, it is an entire way of life and covers and rules ALL aspects of society. This is NOT something embraced by Western civilization - but is embraced by Islam.

So... where do you see a meeting of minds here?

BecMacFeegle wrote:

kronos wrote:Bec, Matt: you're both entitled to your feelings. Do not presume to lecture me as to what my feelings should be, or what I "should be reflecting on." It's offensive.

In a thread based entirely upon judging the feelings expressed by others and describing them under the header of 'warped', I would say that's a bit rich.

Fair enough--I was judging other people's opinions. What I was not doing was preaching to other people about how they should feel, much less preaching to other Superior Politics members about how they should feel. I was judging the opinions of faraway people who don't know us and can't hear us; you and Matt were directly addressing myself, dbl and Tex. And much (but not all) of what I was "judging" in those letters written by faraway people was their judgmentalism, and the overweening sense of moral superiority that seemed to drip from their words.

Anyway, I am going to drop this now. I'll go on discussing the original topic as I see fit, but I'm done with the intra-board aspect, and I regret my part in feeding it. The last word's yours, if you want it.

A day has passed. I'm not sure why I reacted like that, but I certainly shouldn't have posted while I was reacting like that. My reaction now seems unjustified and overblown.

Sorry about that.

kronos wrote:A day has passed. I'm not sure why I reacted like that, but I certainly shouldn't have posted while I was reacting like that. My reaction now seems unjustified and overblown.

Sorry about that.

You reacted with emotion. It's easy to do and understandable given this particular situation.

That said, there's no reason for people to be offended by others opinions or feelings.... unless it's a personal thing.

My final post on this issue is this article: http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/2011/05/02/osama_and_chants_of_usa

The_Amber_Spyglass wrote:My final post on this issue is this article: http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/2011/05/02/osama_and_chants_of_usa

Clearly the author is not living in the real world. This sort of behavior is not only not new, or a development of the last few years or so, it is entirely predictable. Man has been cheering victories over his enemies since he first stood upright. Honestly, where has this guy been living?

Sure... not a single soul cheered when it was learned that Hitler was dead... we didn't have massive ticker-tape parades through the streets after wins in WWI and WWII.

I think this author needs to crack a history book.