Obama's Immigration Hypocrisy

At first they complain that he's taking on too much at a time like this and now this guy is complaining that he hasn't done enough.

So what Obama doesn't have the 60 votes? Is it too much to ask for a little Republican support?

And Obama did address the issue of preventing businesses from hiring illegals, several times actually. He called for more inspections and a system for business owners to know if somebody is here legally or not.

TexasBlue wrote:

At first they complain that he's taking on too much at a time like this and now this guy is complaining that he hasn't done enough.

He hasn't enforced the laws on employers hiring illegals. Bush never did either. It's a hot button issue. Obama was talking out the side of his neck during his speech because he knows he can't get the bill he wants passed. Lib or con, any politician that would vote for it (if it were actually to come to vote) would be blasted out of a job. You'd see some serious civil unrest in this country. People are really getting sick of the illegal thing.

TexasBlue wrote:

So what Obama doesn't have the 60 votes? Is it too much to ask for a little Republican support?

He'd never get it unless GOP support wants to commit political suicide. Bush couldn't get it rammed thru with a GOP controlled congress. Bama won't with the slim majorities he has now.

TexasBlue wrote:

And Obama did address the issue of preventing businesses from hiring illegals, several times actually. He called for more inspections and a system for business owners to know if somebody is here legally or not.

Called for and enforcing is two different things. We have laws on the books already. As usual, red tape prevents things from being enforced. Then there's the crowd who cry racism every time a bunch get deported.

How can he? He's not out there enforcing laws, he proposed a system that would allow employers to see if somebody was here legally or not.
Why could he not get the Bill he wants passed? The points he brought up seemed reasonable to me and should be able to cross party lines.

Well, times have changed a little. Think about what would happen to the unemployment rate....
And as long as it's not a law that enables racial profiling like the one in Arizona, there won't be any problems with the Latino population.

There's always a crowd screaming something. Like I said, he called for a system that would make it easy for an employer to tell citizen status, that's a good step in the right direction.

TexasBlue wrote:

How can he? He's not out there enforcing laws, he proposed a system that would allow employers to see if somebody was here legally or not.
Why could he not get the Bill he wants passed? The points he brought up seemed reasonable to me and should be able to cross party lines.

E-Verify takes care of that problem for employers.

TexasBlue wrote:

Want more? Enforcement? Here's the federal law;

A person or entity having knowledge of a violation or potential violation of employer sanctions provisions may submit a signed written complaint to the INS office with jurisdiction over the business or residence of the potential violator, whether an employer, employee, or agent. The complaint must include the names and addresses of both the complainant and the violator, and detailed factual allegations, including date, time and place of the potential violation, and the specific conduct alleged to be a violation of employer sanctions. By regulation, the INS will only investigate third party complaints that have “a reasonable probability of validity.”26

Designated INS officers and employees, and all other officers whose duty it is to enforce criminal laws, may make an arrest for violation of smuggling or harboring illegal aliens.27

State and local law enforcement officials have the general power to investigate and arrest violators of federal immigration statutes without prior INS knowledge or approval, as long as they are authorized to do so by state law. There is “no extant federal limitation” on this authority. The 1996 immigration control legislation passed by Congress was intended to encourage states and local agencies to participate in the process of enforcing federal immigration laws.28

Immigration officers and local law enforcement officers may detain an individual for a brief warrantless interrogation where circumstances create a reasonable suspicion that the individual is illegally present in the U.S. Specific facts constituting a reasonable suspicion include evasive, nervous or erratic behavior, dress or speech indicating foreign citizenship, and presence in an area known to contain a concentration of illegal aliens. Hispanic appearance alone is not sufficient.29 Immigration officers and police must have a valid warrant or valid employer’s consent to enter work places or residences.30

Any vehicle used to transport or harbor illegal aliens, or as a substantial part of an activity that encourages illegal aliens to come to or reside in the U.S. may be seized by an immigration officer and is subject to forfeiture. The forfeiture power covers any conveyances used within the U.S.31

Private persons and entities may initiate civil suits to obtain injunctions and treble damages against enterprises that conspire or actually violate federal alien smuggling, harboring, or document fraud statutes under the Racketeer-Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act (RICO).32 The “pattern of racketeering” activity is defined as commission of two or more of the listed crimes. A RICO “enterprise” can be any individual legal entity, or a group of individuals who are not a legal entity but are associated in fact, and can include non-profit associations.

Employers who aid or abet the preparation of false tax returns by failing to pay income or social security taxes for illegal alien employees, or who knowingly make payments using false names or social security numbers, are subject to IRS criminal and civil sanctions.33

U.S. nationals who have suffered intentional discrimination because of citizenship or national origin by an employer with more than 3 employees may file a complaint within 180 days of the discriminatory act with the Special Counsel for Immigration-Related Unfair Employment Practices, U.S. Department of Justice.34

In addition to the federal statutes summarized above, state laws and local ordinances controlling fair labor practices, workers compensation, zoning, safe housing and rental property, nuisance, licensing, street vending, and solicitations by contractors may also apply to activities that involve illegal aliens.

TexasBlue wrote:

Well, times have changed a little. Think about what would happen to the unemployment rate....
And as long as it's not a law that enables racial profiling like the one in Arizona, there won't be any problems with the Latino population.

You got to be kidding me! Racial profiling?????? That bill mirrors the Federal law precisely! In fact, it's slightly lenient. Federal agents don't have to have reason to suspect if you're here illegally. The AZ law does. AZ can't pull you over for looking illegal. The Feds can!

TexasBlue wrote:

Yeah, unemployment rate is right. If they were starved out of a job, this economy would turn around within weeks! But people making excuses for them keeps any of that form happening.

The key word in almost the first sentence on that website is "voluntary".

Problem with the I-9 is that as long as you have the matching ID, SS #, etc. there's no way to tell whether that's really you or not or if you're using somebody else's identity.

I think this program would do the job if it was mandatory and if it wasn't so easy to fake a US driver's license and use somebody else's SS #.

That says nothing about employers having to check residence status. It only states that one has to report the illegal alien to the closest INS office.
So pretty much you're trusting the employers to turn in their cheap labor force by filing a complaint at the INS office or calling in the Feds.

When do the Feds ever pull somebody over?

How is it not racial profiling? If a cop sees somebody of Latino descent, he can pull him over for small things like not using your turn signal, not completely stopping at a red light when turning right, going 5 miles over the speed limit, etc. and ask him about his residence status, etc. whereas a white guy would not get pulled over for that and even if, he wouldn't have to be hassled with the residence status.

But the other side of that argument is that cheap goods would get more expensive. Fruit and vegetable prices would sky rocket if farmers in Cali had to pay minimum wage! That's why I think Obama is right with implementing a guest worker program, so that people can come here and work for cheap labor and once their visa is over, they have to leave. Germany does that with Poles and other Eastern Europeans and it works well there.

TexasBlue wrote:

The key word in almost the first sentence on that website is "voluntary".

Problem with the I-9 is that as long as you have the matching ID, SS #, etc. there's no way to tell whether that's really you or not or if you're using somebody else's identity.

I think this program would do the job if it was mandatory and if it wasn't so easy to fake a US driver's license and use somebody else's SS #.

That's right. Those employers know what the fines will be when they get caught. If you own a meat packing plant, you're under a watchful eye more than the company that hires an illegal to be a security guard.

TexasBlue wrote:

Drivers licenses are getting more fool proof as time goes by. Of curse, it's a state by state issue. Minnesota's has a thing built into them that makes them hard to forge. And yeah, it should be mandatory.

TexasBlue wrote:

That says nothing about employers having to check residence status. It only states that one has to report the illegal alien to the closest INS office.
So pretty much you're trusting the employers to turn in their cheap labor force by filing a complaint at the INS office or calling in the Feds.

Yep. And then you're trusting ICE to come pick them up. Like that's going to happen.

TexasBlue wrote:

When do the Feds ever pull somebody over?

Not talking that specifically. The Feds don't have to have a reason to suspect you of anything when it comes to illegal aliens. If you look like Pancho Villa and Pancho committed a crime in the are, they can detain you with no cause other than looking Mexican. AZ can't.

TexasBlue wrote:

How is it not racial profiling? If a cop sees somebody of Latino descent, he can pull him over for small things like not using your turn signal, not completely stopping at a red light when turning right, going 5 miles over the speed limit, etc. and ask him about his residence status, etc. whereas a white guy would not get pulled over for that and even if, he wouldn't have to be hassled with the residence status.

An AZ cop could stop a car speeding north on I-10, away from the Mexican border. The driver could be Hispanic, and there could be 10 people the cop believes to be Mexicans crammed into the seats. The cop could cite the driver for speeding. No problem. He could check for a driver's license. No problem. But there was one thing he could NOT do. He couldn't ask the driver for some evidence that those people crammed into his car were in this country legally. Now that's changed. The cop would have every reason to believe that the driver is bringing illegals into AZ... and he could ask questions.

TexasBlue wrote:

Screeching about profiling is nothing but a tactic used to make the job of law enforcement much more difficult than it needs to be. The true goal of those who scream 'profiling' is to make it virtually impossible to enforce immigration laws. Virtually all of the illegals in AZ are Hispanic, most Mexican, and to find the illegals you really do have to look for Latinos... and if you look for Latinos, you're profiling. How fucking asinine is this? Mexicans are invading AZ, but when you go looking for the invaders (lawbreakers), you can't go looking for Mexicans. Doesn't that sound just a bit retarded?

TexasBlue wrote:

But the other side of that argument is that cheap goods would get more expensive. Fruit and vegetable prices would sky rocket if farmers in Cali had to pay minimum wage! That's why I think Obama is right with implementing a guest worker program, so that people can come here and work for cheap labor and once their visa is over, they have to leave. Germany does that with Poles and other Eastern Europeans and it works well there.

Yeah, they would get more expensive. That's right! But then at the same time, you people who use that argument are the same ones who say wages aren't high enough in this country for low or middle class workers. So, which is it? You can't have it both ways.

TexasBlue wrote:

I support a guest worker program. Most conservatives do. But the border has to be secured first before any of this other shit. The flood has to stop. You make it so these people don't want to come here and the jobs will open up for Americans. If 12 million illegals left tomorrow on their own, this economy would turn around so fast with unemployment dropping like a horse turd.

TexasBlue wrote:

You got to remember, this is my country. You're here on a visa. You'll eventually go back to Germany. There's no excuse for making excuses for these people no matter anyway. Yo wouldn't put up with any of this bullshit if it happened in your country. But thanks to the PC assholes over here, we have to fight and claw our way to make this change regarding illegals. Most people in this country side with me on this by a large margin. I know only one person in real life who doesn't mind the illegals being here. Everyone else i've spoken to can't stand it and are getting more and more pissed about this.

But a lot of times, just like in the Coal and Oil business, the profit heavily outweighs the fines, so they'd rather pay the fine than not hire illegals.

Well, like I said, cops are more likely to pull over Latinos to see if they're transporting illegals.
Once again, a fake-proof driver's license would get the job done just as well.

It's not that, it's the fact that it also puts Mexican-Americans under the radar and puts them through potential checks and hassles. It's not about making it impossible to enforce immigration laws, it's about making sure that Latinos can drive like every other non-Latino without having to be careful and being in the risk of getting pulled over.

Not to mention, it makes Mexican tourists a lot more prone to misunderstandings there. If they don't have their Passports with them (which a lot of tourists don't because they don't want to lose it), they're in a load of trouble.

There are ways to increase wages without increasing the price, especially from multi-billion dollar corporations.

If those 12 million people left, the economy would crumble. Think about all those illegal immigrants shoveling horse shit, cleaning toilets, working in the kitchen for 12 hours straight, picking strawberries, gutting cows, etc. you think all those jobs would be filled the next day? Most people would rather stay on welfare or unemployment money than shoveling horse shit or gutting cows.

Nobody in their right mind wants to keep the illegals here without any consequences. It's how one should take care of them that's the problem. Some people don't support putting businesses on the spot light because it could hurt them. Some people don't want to round up 12 mio. people because it's financially impossible and "inhumane" according to them. Then some people don't want to secure the border because they say it's too big... and the list goes on and on.

TexasBlue wrote:

But a lot of times, just like in the Coal and Oil business, the profit heavily outweighs the fines, so they'd rather pay the fine than not hire illegals.

Raise the fines to the point they won't do it. That's what i'd do. But the spineless politicians won't. Gov't is part of the problem.

TexasBlue wrote:

Well, like I said, cops are more likely to pull over Latinos to see if they're transporting illegals.
Once again, a fake-proof driver's license would get the job done just as well.

So what? Most illegals are Mexican.

TexasBlue wrote:

It's not that, it's the fact that it also puts Mexican-Americans under the radar and puts them through potential checks and hassles. It's not about making it impossible to enforce immigration laws, it's about making sure that Latinos can drive like every other non-Latino without having to be careful and being in the risk of getting pulled over.

If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to worry about. People like you seem to put illegals over US citizens by your logic.

TexasBlue wrote:

Not to mention, it makes Mexican tourists a lot more prone to misunderstandings there. If they don't have their Passports with them (which a lot of tourists don't because they don't want to lose it), they're in a load of trouble.

Too bad, so sad. Carry your passport and you won't get in trouble. Ignorance of the law is no excuse. "Gee officer, i didn't know this was a 45 mph zone." You get the ticket for doing 60 mph anyway.

TexasBlue wrote:

There are ways to increase wages without increasing the price, especially from multi-billion dollar corporations.

We've been over this before (on as different subject). Corporations don't always have the profit margin you think they do. They pay employees more and they will raise the price of their goods. Fuel costs go up and the trucking companies charge more to transport items for you.... to stay in the profit zone. It's no different elsewhere.

TexasBlue wrote:

If those 12 million people left, the economy would crumble. Think about all those illegal immigrants shoveling horse shit, cleaning toilets, working in the kitchen for 12 hours straight, picking strawberries, gutting cows, etc. you think all those jobs would be filled the next day? Most people would rather stay on welfare or unemployment money than shoveling horse shit or gutting cows.

Bullshit. Those are job whitte folks used to do. The packing plant here in town used to be all white folks. Now it's all Mexicans. What's the mitigating factor? The wage. They wouldn't keep up with a living wage, so the white people wuit over the years.

TexasBlue wrote:

What is the argument here? Every single alien broke the law! Our gov't, past & present, Republican & Democrat, have allowed the invasion of millions, which is the largest invasion of any nation, at any time, by any means & in direct violation of Article IV, Section IV of our Constitution! Not only have they allowed the invasion, they force American tax payers to pay billions on billions of dollars to provide welfare, free medical care, prison cells and to educate the invaders numerous children. At the same time, the invading horde break numerous laws and massive document fraud and are destroying our schools, hospitals, communities, culture and standard of living while robbing, raping, killing and assaulting American citizens!

TexasBlue wrote:

Nobody in their right mind wants to keep the illegals here without any consequences. It's how one should take care of them that's the problem. Some people don't support putting businesses on the spot light because it could hurt them. Some people don't want to round up 12 mio. people because it's financially impossible and "inhumane" according to them. Then some people don't want to secure the border because they say it's too big... and the list goes on and on.

Screw the business. If they break the law, the spotlight is on them. And we can't logistically deport 12 million. No money or the people to do it. You "starve" them out of a job.... unless one keeps making it hard to do that to begin with.

Forget that. Threaten to pull their operating license after being fined a couple of times, that'll work for sure!

A lot of Americans down there are of Mexican heritage as well. They've been living there for centuries, because that part of the US used to belong to Mexico.

It puts people of a certain skin color through hassles and unnecessary checks, that's racial profiling. Would you like it if a Cop pulled you over and asked you all kinds of questions about your residence status, family, etc.?

Right. Step on the tourists that come to AZ and spend their money in the malls, restaurants, sights, etc. You'd be surprised how many Americans don't carry their Passport around in Europe because you're in a world of hurt if you lose it. And even if you don't carry it around, nobody is going to lock you up on suspicion of having crossed the border illegally.

But you can get pulled over for going 50 mph. Most cops won't pull you over but if they see you're Latino, they might, just to check if you're transporting illegals or are illegal yourself. That's racial profiling.

Look at how much BP is spending on the Oil spill right now. That money doesn't come from a special back account for oil spills, that's all money that would have gone to the top management of that company. All corporations are like that!

Are there even enough unemployed people in your town to fill all the spots in your packaging plant?

And even if they paid minimum wage, a lot of people would rather stay on welfare. And believe it or not, a lot of people who have worked a well paying job before aren't gonna want to start out making minimum wage again, especially those that had manager positions or college degrees.

Illegal aliens aren't eligible for welfare and are only treated medically in emergencies, which is still a lot of money but not as much as the right likes to make it sound. Also, if an illegal alien commits a crime, he's deported, not put into prison.

Illegal immigration costs U.S. taxpayers about $113 billion a year at the federal, state and
local level. The bulk of the costs — some $84.2 billion — are absorbed by state and local
governments.

The annual outlay that illegal aliens cost U.S. taxpayers is an average amount per native-
headed household of $1,117. The fiscal impact per household varies considerably because
the greatest share of the burden falls on state and local taxpayers whose burden depends on
the size of the illegal alien population in that locality

Education for the children of illegal aliens constitutes the single largest cost to taxpayers, at
an annual price tag of nearly $52 billion. Nearly all of those costs are absorbed by state and
local governments.

At the federal level, about one-third of outlays are matched by tax collections from illegal
aliens. At the state and local level, an average of less than 5 percent of the public costs
associated with illegal immigration is recouped through taxes collected from illegal aliens.

Most illegal aliens do not pay income taxes. Among those who do, much of the revenues
collected are refunded to the illegal aliens when they file tax returns. Many are also claiming
tax credits resulting in payments from the U.S. Treasury.

And now you're saying that illegal immigrants are criminals that rape & kill?

TexasBlue wrote:

Forget that. Threaten to pull their operating license after being fined a couple of times, that'll work for sure!

That will work... if someone in DC had the balls to do it.

TexasBlue wrote:

A lot of Americans down there are of Mexican heritage as well. They've been living there for centuries, because that part of the US used to belong to Mexico.

You're leaving out a little fact. Most illegals can't speak English or if they do, not every well. Two, a Hispanic-American will be just pulled over for whatever. The cops aren't going to pull over a Mexican guy driving by himself. Part of that law forbids this. Three, the American (i hate saying Mexican-American) will show his drivers license and be on his way in a short time.

TexasBlue wrote:

(answers the phone)

(Now i'm back)

TexasBlue wrote:

It puts people of a certain skin color through hassles and unnecessary checks, that's racial profiling. Would you like it if a Cop pulled you over and asked you all kinds of questions about your residence status, family, etc.?

If i was an illegal alien, no. As a US citizen, i don't care.

TexasBlue wrote:

Right. Step on the tourists that come to AZ and spend their money in the malls, restaurants, sights, etc. You'd be surprised how many Americans don't carry their Passport around in Europe because you're in a world of hurt if you lose it. And even if you don't carry it around, nobody is going to lock you up on suspicion of having crossed the border illegally.

So, you advocate flouting that law, too? You're supposed to carry it if you're on a visa or passport just the same as i'm supposed to carry a drivers license when driving. If you're here on a visa or a passport, you must carry it. Simple as that. Any excuse is irrelevant. Yeah.... 'everybody does' it is no excuse.

TexasBlue wrote:

Any American traveling in Europe that isn't carry theirs can't bitch when something goes wrong. They're supposed to carry it. All these excuses tire me. It's a cop out.

TexasBlue wrote:

But you can get pulled over for going 50 mph. Most cops won't pull you over but if they see you're Latino, they might, just to check if you're transporting illegals or are illegal yourself. That's racial profiling.

Bullshit. The new AZ law requires law-enforcement officers not to make their own judgment about a person's immigration status but to rely on the federal gov't. Any cop who reasonably suspects a person is illegal is required to check with ICE.

TexasBlue wrote:

Look at how much BP is spending on the Oil spill right now. That money doesn't come from a special back account for oil spills, that's all money that would have gone to the top management of that company. All corporations are like that!

Yeah, right. Is that why BP is suspending dividend payments? I guess those would've went to the CEO, too.

TexasBlue wrote:

Are there even enough unemployed people in your town to fill all the spots in your packaging plant?

Yeah, there is. They have an ad in the paper this week in fact. But i wouldn't last a day there i was told... watching bulls and cows being slaughtered. But they're hiring. But they'll have to raise their pay to get people in there. Ooops. Might have to pay an extra 75 cents for a pound of beef in the grocery store.

TexasBlue wrote:

And even if they paid minimum wage, a lot of people would rather stay on welfare. And believe it or not, a lot of people who have worked a well paying job before aren't gonna want to start out making minimum wage again, especially those that had manager positions or college degrees.

Probably so. I've saw a job here in town for Burger King (assistant manager) that was for $8.50 an hour. They can go blank themselves.

TexasBlue wrote:

Another point is over-qualification. Matt can tell you about that. Some employers will look at your work history and won't hire you knowing you made X amount before and will leave when the economy gets better.

TexasBlue wrote:

Illegal aliens aren't eligible for welfare and are only treated medically in emergencies, which is still a lot of money but not as much as the right likes to make it sound. Also, if an illegal alien commits a crime, he's deported, not put into prison.

Baloney. Put your money where your mouth is and read this PDF file. Don't even give a line about them being an extremist organization... since they regularly testify before congressional committees.
http://www.fairus.org/site/DocServer/USCostStudy_2010.pdf?docID=4921

The key findings are:

Illegal immigration costs U.S. taxpayers about $113 billion a year at the federal, state and
local level. The bulk of the costs — some $84.2 billion — are absorbed by state and local
governments.

The annual outlay that illegal aliens cost U.S. taxpayers is an average amount per native-
headed household of $1,117. The fiscal impact per household varies considerably because
the greatest share of the burden falls on state and local taxpayers whose burden depends on
the size of the illegal alien population in that locality

Education for the children of illegal aliens constitutes the single largest cost to taxpayers, at
an annual price tag of nearly $52 billion. Nearly all of those costs are absorbed by state and
local governments.

At the federal level, about one-third of outlays are matched by tax collections from illegal
aliens. At the state and local level, an average of less than 5 percent of the public costs
associated with illegal immigration is recouped through taxes collected from illegal aliens.

Most illegal aliens do not pay income taxes. Among those who do, much of the revenues
collected are refunded to the illegal aliens when they file tax returns. Many are also claiming
tax credits resulting in payments from the U.S. Treasury.

TexasBlue wrote:

And now you're saying that illegal immigrants are criminals that rape & kill?

They're human, aren't they? Or are those crimes only committed by whites and blacks? The point is that those crimes are in addition to what we have from our own people; cops being shot and killed that probably would've lived to a ripe old age like the cop in Dallas 5 years ago.... by an illegal.

TexasBlue wrote:Another point is over-qualification. Matt can tell you about that. Some employers will look at your work history and won't hire you knowing you made X amount before and will leave when the economy gets better.

A driver's license is easily faked, so the cop will have to go through a process of checking his information, something he doesn't have to do if there's no suspicion of the guy being here legally.

Who was it? :suspect:

Really? You wouldn't care if you got pulled over for not using your turn signal while a white guy was doing the same thing and didn't get pulled over for it? And then you have to wait for the cop to check your info to see if you're legal or not! Nobody likes sitting in their car for 20 minutes waiting for the cop to return to your car and let you know what's gonna happen, especially not in hot ass AZ.

I'm saying, it doesn't do the tourist industry any good.
And you're not supposed to carry your passport when you're here on a Visa, because you can get a drivers license then. And I'm pretty sure you're actually required to get a state ID made and carry that around with you.

The law allows Cops to ask about residence status when pulling somebody over, so if a cop thinks you might be illegal here, he's likely to pull you over for pretty much anything. Just because they're not supposed to make up their mind doesn't stop them from doing so.

Think about how much money they've spent and are going to spent in the future. Billions! Where do you think that money would have gone if not to the oil spill? The independent BP gas station owner? Bullshit!

How much would they have to pay you to work there?

Yeah, but assistant manager really isn't anything. Managers don't make bad money for the work they do, everyone below them doesn't get paid well at all, nevermind benefits.

Yeah, most of it is at the state and local level, meaning it's schools, hospitals, etc. not welfare.

The taxes are a joke. When my mom used to work at H&R block, her manager would make her process some people who were obviously here illegally. He just cared about the numbers and the commission.

Those are isolated incidents. If you think about it, crime only starts coming up heavily when they move into an area with a high crime rate already. Our Little Mexico here is probably 70% Mexican and the rest black and white. It's by far not the worst area in town and doesn't have gang problems at all. Matter of fact, I go down there Saturday nights and buy a taco or two and a taco stand down there.

The_Amber_Spyglass wrote:This is where I want tougher regulation on businesses. I'm sorry, but calls about "free market capitalism" on this issue only makes me sick. They should not be allowed to exploit people... whether that be illegal immigrant, naturalised or born there.

TexasBlue wrote:

A driver's license is easily faked, so the cop will have to go through a process of checking his information, something he doesn't have to do if there's no suspicion of the guy being here legally.

This is true. It's another problem on top of a problem.

TexasBlue wrote:

Who was it? :suspect:

A telemarketer.

TexasBlue wrote:

Really? You wouldn't care if you got pulled over for not using your turn signal while a white guy was doing the same thing and didn't get pulled over for it? And then you have to wait for the cop to check your info to see if you're legal or not! Nobody likes sitting in their car for 20 minutes waiting for the cop to return to your car and let you know what's gonna happen, especially not in hot ass AZ.

That's profiling, for sure. There has to be a reason other than what you speak of. Most cops don't do the turn signal thing except late at night while they troll for drunk drivers. Actually, the bill prohibits racial profiling by saying that race can only be considered to the "extent permitted by the United States or Arizona Constitution." And under no circumstances can the officer solely consider race, color or national origin. He can consider race as a factor just like he can under federal and Arizona law now. Supporters don't even address this point because the bill makes it so clear that racial profiling is NOT allowed that it wasn't even worth a mention. That's because there's no change in the law. Racial profiling wasn't allowed before the bill and it's not allowed after the bill.

TexasBlue wrote:

I'm saying, it doesn't do the tourist industry any good.
And you're not supposed to carry your passport when you're here on a Visa, because you can get a drivers license then. And I'm pretty sure you're actually required to get a state ID made and carry that around with you.

Federal law already requires resident aliens to carry registration documents. The AZ law makes it a state crime to violate the federal law. The law doesn't apply to "those born and raised in the Grand Canyon State" because they are obviously citizens. The law also lists documents that provide a presumption of citizenship one of which is a Driver's License. There's no need for citizens to carry their birth certificate or passport.

TexasBlue wrote:

The law allows Cops to ask about residence status when pulling somebody over, so if a cop thinks you might be illegal here, he's likely to pull you over for pretty much anything. Just because they're not supposed to make up their mind doesn't stop them from doing so.

The bill clearly states that law enforcement can only ask a person about their immigration status in the course of a lawful encounter and upon reasonable suspicion that the person is in the country illegally. Randomly pulling people over would be a violation of the new law. Any cop who reasonably suspects a person is illegal is required to check with ICE. Didn't know that, did you? No, because if you did, you wouldn't be going in circles like you are.

TexasBlue wrote:

Think about how much money they've spent and are going to spent in the future. Billions! Where do you think that money would have gone if not to the oil spill? The independent BP gas station owner? Bullshit!

Why are we talking about BP in this thread anyway? It's pointless.

TexasBlue wrote:

How much would they have to pay you to work there?

I wouldn't. I can't stand to see animals killed whether it be by getting run over, shot or slaughtered. I'm not an animal rights nut either. I just can't take it in the stomach. Does that make sense? There's jobs that some people can't do. This is one for me. Other people can't work around sewers. I did for 4 years (working for a city). The smell didn't bother me.

Why are we talking about this?

TexasBlue wrote:

Yeah, but assistant manager really isn't anything. Managers don't make bad money for the work they do, everyone below them doesn't get paid well at all, nevermind benefits.

True. But that job had all the good bennies. The pay was sorry as hell. That's ok. There's a meat processing plant here in town (not to be confused with a slaughter house) that i have an app in for. They are hiring.

TexasBlue wrote:

Yeah, most of it is at the state and local level, meaning it's schools, hospitals, etc. not welfare.

Doesn't matter. I just gave you facts on what they cost us here. It's not in the black either. They are a drain for cities, counties and states. We just had an illegal put in jail for using false documents to get a job here in town. He's on an immigration hold (in jail).

TexasBlue wrote:

The taxes are a joke. When my mom used to work at H&R block, her manager would make her process some people who were obviously here illegally. He just cared about the numbers and the commission.

That's where the federal law should be fining H & R, too.

TexasBlue wrote:

Those are isolated incidents. If you think about it, crime only starts coming up heavily when they move into an area with a high crime rate already. Our Little Mexico here is probably 70% Mexican and the rest black and white. It's by far not the worst area in town and doesn't have gang problems at all. Matter of fact, I go down there Saturday nights and buy a taco or two and a taco stand down there.

Crime has gone up in this town i'm in (pop. 3,000) since the Mexicans came here. I had a county sheriff's deputy tell me this. He's been working for this county for over 20 years. Crime will always be present no matter where you go or live. But these people increased it 10-fold.... in just a little town.... in liberal Minnesota.

And how can you tell a cop pulled you over for being Latino instead of not using your turn signal? According to the law, a cop can pull you over for going any mileage over the speed limit. Obviously that won't hold up in court, but who cares if you're only checking for illegals?

The law says a lot of things, but the fact is that when most people see a black guy in a pimped out Chevy with 4 $5,000 rims on it, they raise and eye brow and they don't think that the guy is the CEO of J.P. Morgan Chase. A cop is more likely to pull him over because the dude is likely to have drugs or a gun on him. THey're not supposed to do that, according to the law, but it still happens and everybody knows it.

Yeah, well technically pulling somebody over for not using your turn signal is "in the course of a lawful encounter", but it's unlikely a cop would pull somebody over for that unless he has suspicion that the driver or passangers might be here illegally. It doesn't matter who has to check with what, the fact is that Latinos get pulled over for minor traffic violations so that the cop can check the resident status even if a white person would not have gotten over.

Because I was saying that these illegals and guestworkers would take up jobs Americans wouldn't necessarily want to do, and you just proved my point. So even if all these jobs would open up, the slaughterhouses would have to pay the American citizen a hell of a lot more and add some benefits to do the work that these illegals do now. Therefore, meat prices wouldn't just go up 75 cents, they'd go up a lot more than that.

Well, good luck with that job! How much do they pay?

No doubt, but my original point was that illegals don't receive welfare like the rights likes to say they do. Still doesn't change the fact that they take up a lot of tax money on other levels.

TexasBlue wrote:

And how can you tell a cop pulled you over for being Latino instead of not using your turn signal? According to the law, a cop can pull you over for going any mileage over the speed limit. Obviously that won't hold up in court, but who cares if you're only checking for illegals?

You can't. You can't prove it either when it comes to this law (if you even read it).

TexasBlue wrote:

The law says a lot of things, but the fact is that when most people see a black guy in a pimped out Chevy with 4 $5,000 rims on it, they raise and eye brow and they don't think that the guy is the CEO of J.P. Morgan Chase. A cop is more likely to pull him over because the dude is likely to have drugs or a gun on him. THey're not supposed to do that, according to the law, but it still happens and everybody knows it.

Still happens but show us where it does happen.

TexasBlue wrote:

You keep on with this and it boggles my mind. You keep on with the profiling thing when in fact 98% of all illegals are from Mexico. These people have invaded this country and more than 60% of this country is fed up with it.

TexasBlue wrote:

Yeah, well technically pulling somebody over for not using your turn signal is "in the course of a lawful encounter", but it's unlikely a cop would pull somebody over for that unless he has suspicion that the driver or passangers might be here illegally. It doesn't matter who has to check with what, the fact is that Latinos get pulled over for minor traffic violations so that the cop can check the resident status even if a white person would not have gotten over.

Well duh. They have an illegal alien problem. You keep splitting straws with this even though i've post shit from the law itself. If you want, i can post the entire damn thing. Then i'll post the entire law on the federal level and you won't be able to find a damn bit of difference!

TexasBlue wrote:

Because I was saying that these illegals and guestworkers would take up jobs Americans wouldn't necessarily want to do, and you just proved my point. So even if all these jobs would open up, the slaughterhouses would have to pay the American citizen a hell of a lot more and add some benefits to do the work that these illegals do now. Therefore, meat prices wouldn't just go up 75 cents, they'd go up a lot more than that.

No, i didn't just prove your point. That place had nothing but local town folk working there till the Mexicans took over and the company started freezing the pay. Mos of the people here are farming types. Those people are used to that kind of stuff. I'm a repatriated city slicker. Again, you didn't read what i said two posts ago.

TexasBlue wrote:

And there's benefits there at that place like most other businesses. Again, you whine about the price of goods going up because the price of wages going up. But then at the same time, you complain (not necessarily here) that wages aren't high enough for American workers.

TexasBlue wrote:

Well, good luck with that job! How much do they pay?

They start at 10 till you get thru probation. Top out is 13. I used to make $15 before getting laid off. I'll take a job that pays 10.50 or 11 an hour at this point.

TexasBlue wrote:

No doubt, but my original point was that illegals don't receive welfare like the rights likes to say they do. Still doesn't change the fact that they take up a lot of tax money on other levels.

I don't buy that for a second. Many illegals have children born here (which makes them citizens) and those kids have to be taken care of. So, the family gets welfare. Don't make me post the stats on this, too. I can if you want.

TexasBlue wrote:You've gone round the bend with this.

Federal law provides that any alien who 1) enters or attempts to enter the U.S. at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers, 2) eludes examination by immigration officers, or 3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the U.S. by a willfully false or misleading representation is guilty of improper entry by an alien. For the first commission of the offense, the person is fined, imprisoned up to six months, or both, and for a subsequent offense, is fined, imprisoned up to 2 years, or both (8 U.S.C. § 1325).

TexasBlue wrote:

In regards to "profiling", reasonable suspicion is a key part of this bill. You best read the bill where i posted the PDF link! There are examples where reasonable suspicion can occur without origin in racial make up. Not having a driver’s license or having a forged one, being unable to understand English or (an extreme case) riding in the cargo bay of a truck with a dozen men. The law will not necessitate racial profiling as much as you want it to. I'm getting tired of these sidestepping, straw splitting examples.

TexasBlue wrote:

Now, read this!!
http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf

What's your point? Just because it's the law doesn't mean it doesn't leave room for racial profiling.

And in order for the cop to check all of those things, he has to pull somebody over at first, or how else would he take a look at the guy's driver's license, know if he understands English, etc.? In order for a cop to check those things, he has to pull somebody over if there is a possibility that the guy is here illegally. He sure won't pull over a white family for going 5 miles over the speed limit, but he might pull over 4 Mexican guys riding in a car together for that.

TexasBlue wrote:

What's your point? Just because it's the law doesn't mean it doesn't leave room for racial profiling.

It's like banging my head against a wall. It's like you never read what i post. Again, the AZ law mirrors the federal law to the letter. They did that on purpose because they knew people like you would be saying exactly what you're saying. So, i ask you, if it's ok for the federal law and not ok for for AZ, then that makes you a hypocrite.

TexasBlue wrote:

And in order for the cop to check all of those things, he has to pull somebody over at first, or how else would he take a look at the guy's driver's license, know if he understands English, etc.? In order for a cop to check those things, he has to pull somebody over if there is a possibility that the guy is here illegally. He sure won't pull over a white family for going 5 miles over the speed limit, but he might pull over 4 Mexican guys riding in a car together for that.

Police have to have a reason other than suspicion of being an illegal immigrant (traffic violation, disorderly conduct, etc) to ask for your “papers.” Taking your kid to get ice cream isn’t legal grounds for the cops to stop you. Cops aren't going to stop a Mexican for doing 5 over the speed limit. If they are, then show me. Under the more realistic scenario, he'll be pulled over for a traffic violation and asked to offer his driver’s license (his “papers”). And that will be it. And again, they have to contact ICE in regards to a suspected illegal. They must do this.

TexasBlue wrote:

People that are against AZ’s law believe cops lack the judgment to enforce AZ’s law. But at the same time, they believe other "officials" can make a snap judgment about who deserves a job or a superior education based on skin color.

The Federal law wouldn't be okay if it was enforced by cops either. Just because it's a federal law doesn't make it better.

Have you been reading what I'm saying? A cop can pull you over for any little traffic violation, but they're unlikely to unless they have a reason for it... thinking you're drunk, have drugs on you, or are illegal. If they see 4 Mexicans in a car not using their turn signal, they might pull them over just to check their paper, even though officially he's pulling them over for the turn signal.

Explain.

TexasBlue wrote:

The Federal law wouldn't be okay if it was enforced by cops either. Just because it's a federal law doesn't make it better.

It isn't enforced by "cops." It's enforced by the FBI and ICE.

TexasBlue wrote:

Have you been reading what I'm saying? A cop can pull you over for any little traffic violation, but they're unlikely to unless they have a reason for it... thinking you're drunk, have drugs on you, or are illegal. If they see 4 Mexicans in a car not using their turn signal, they might pull them over just to check their paper, even though officially he's pulling them over for the turn signal.

Depends on when they do it. As i've said, cops don't pull cars over in those instances except at night. I've gotten pulled over for a burnt out license plate light at 1am. I was sober. But that's why he pulled me over.... seeing if i was drunk.

TexasBlue wrote:

You make too many excuses for illegals. That's what it's coming to. You have no other real solution. The gov't isn't enforcing it's own laws, so AZ decides to do it with a law that exactly mirrors the feral law. But still.....

TexasBlue wrote:

Explain.

Reading comprehension? I meant what i said. If it isn't clear enough, then i can't help you.