The Latest On The Mexican Invasion

The Latest On The Mexican Invasion

Neal Boortz
October 4, 2010


The Mexican invasion is getting worse. If it's not clear to Americans, it is most certainly clear to Mexicans and other Latinos that the United States has absolutely no intention whatsoever of enforcing our immigration laws ... at least not so long as Barack Obama is in the White House. The U.S. Border Patrol has actually abandoned sections of our border to Mexico ... they packed up and left the border to Mexican drug gangs. In other areas ... El Paso, for instance, our Border Patrol agents are being shot at from Mexico as they patrol the border. We do nothing.

Now, the latest. Pirates. That's right, Mexican pirates. Click here for your map of Zapata County, Texas. Notice the lake? That's the Falcon Reservoir. Zoom on in. See that white line down the middle of the lake? That's the border with Mexico. Now this lake is very popular with tourists. You have fishing ... water skiing ... and jet skiing. And last week an American citizen was shot right off of his jet ski by Mexican pirates. David Hartly was set skiing with his wife, Tiffany. The Mexicans shot him in the back of the head. When Tiffany tried to circle back to save him the Mexicans kept shooting at her. She fled back to the U.S. shoreline. Last May officials warned people that Mexicans were robbing Americans at gunpoint on the lake.

Janet Nepolitano, our incredible Homeland Security Director, had a press conference last week ... after the murder of this American citizen. Did she have anything so say about the Mexican pirates on Falcon lake? Nope ...not a word. And as for Obama? All he is saying is that he wants to continue working on comprehensive immigration reform ... ten syllables that translate to three ... am-nes-ty.

I think that Sid Franes, a retired intelligence officer and police detective, pretty much nailed it with this statement:

"It's old news that the Mexican government exports Mexico's poorest citizens into the United States for a number of reasons: It relieves them of the responsibility of providing social and healthcare services for them; it provides their country's economy with an influx of US cash when these illegal workers send money they earn in the US back home; and it defuses problems with far-left groups who are usually successful in using the poor to advance their political agenda. So the Mexican despots give the poor the 'bum's rush' out of Mexico: Here's your sombrero, here's a map, here's a bottle of water, now get out! And American political leaders such as President Barack Obama are too busy fiddling with the U.S. economy to do anything to protect American citizens,"

In the meantime, what are American taxpayers forking over to provide benefits for the participants in the Mexican invasion? You don't want to know. In the meantime .. here's hoping that some Americans start carrying firearms on their boats on Falcon Lake and manage to get in some target shooting.

What are you supposed to do when somebody shoots at you from across the border? Invade the country to bring them to justice? I'm sure the US is negotiating with Mexico to put more police on that lake. What this has to do with the 'Mexican Invasion' is unclear to me, since those people aren't crossing borders.

Also, the equate all Mexicans with these criminals is nothing short of ignorant and racist, and I don't pull the race card often.

BubbleBliss wrote:What are you supposed to do when somebody shoots at you from across the border? Invade the country to bring them to justice? I'm sure the US is negotiating with Mexico to put more police on that lake. What this has to do with the 'Mexican Invasion' is unclear to me, since those people aren't crossing borders.

No, i'm quite certain our State Dept has already let the Mexican gov't know what the hell is going on. But Mexico isn't able to get their forces to quell any of this. Most of the police and military is in cahoots with this in a sense.... by looking the other way or be shot.

BubbleBliss wrote:Also, the equate all Mexicans with these criminals is nothing short of ignorant and racist, and I don't pull the race card often.

Please quote what you consider to be racist.

Corruption is a big problem in Mexico, no doubt, but it doesn't take too much to patrol a lake, especially one that is not that crucial to a drug cartel's business.

Well, following a story about criminals in Mexico and then saying this:
'In the meantime, what are American taxpayers forking over to provide benefits for the participants in the Mexican invasion? You don't want to know. In the meantime .. here's hoping that some Americans start carrying firearms on their boats on Falcon Lake and manage to get in some target shooting.'

Is nothing short of labeling a whole group of people as something they're not.

BubbleBliss wrote:Corruption is a big problem in Mexico, no doubt, but it doesn't take too much to patrol a lake, especially one that is not that crucial to a drug cartel's business.

Well, following a story about criminals in Mexico and then saying this:
'In the meantime, what are American taxpayers forking over to provide benefits for the participants in the Mexican invasion? You don't want to know. In the meantime .. here's hoping that some Americans start carrying firearms on their boats on Falcon Lake and manage to get in some target shooting.'

Is nothing short of labeling a whole group of people as something they're not.

Apparently it takes alot to patrol a lake. Mexico owns half of it.

Nothing racist in that statement. It's nothing but pure disgust at how people who are here illegally are using the system here. Target shooting isn't meant for the typical illegal. He's talking about people carrying their own firearms since the two gov'ts don't seem to have a grasp on this.

But think what you want.

I was talking more about the first sentence in that paragraph. If you wanna talk about the disgust for how people abuse the system, don't throw it into an article about how Mexican criminals are shooting across the border.

Well, i feel as Boortz does yet i harbor no ill will towards people of Hispanic origin. Does that make me a racist?

I think this observation by Sid Franes, the retired intelligence officer and police detective cited by Boortz in his article is very relevant to the points you are trying to infer from it bubbles:

"It's old news that the Mexican government exports Mexico's poorest citizens into the United States for a number of reasons: It relieves them of the responsibility of providing social and healthcare services for them; it provides their country's economy with an influx of US cash when these illegal workers send money they earn in the US back home; and it defuses problems with far-left groups who are usually successful in using the poor to advance their political agenda. So the Mexican despots give the poor the 'bum's rush' out of Mexico: Here's your sombrero, here's a map, here's a bottle of water, now get out!

The Mexican government is corrupt to the core. THAT is our problem here. It is also why Mexico, despite having an abundance natural resources (including oil), countless miles of incredible beaches and a population that is certainly not against hard work, finds itself unable to deal with it's own rampant poverty, crime and drug cartels. Rather than reforming their government, legal and economic systems, they continue on the path of corruption. And then they rail against the US because we want to enforce our own immigration laws as though this were some sort of heinous crime against mankind. And this despite the fact that our immigration laws are FAR more lax their their own. This is just an insult beyond all comprehension! And to add injury to this insult, our own President invites the Mexican President to the US and allows him to further insult Americans by allowing him to rant in our own House of Representatives about how horrible it is that Arizona should have nerve to enforce the federal immigration laws that our own federal government REFUSES to enforce, all the while knowing that his country's immigration laws make ours look insignificant!

I tell you what this all is... it is disgusting beyond belief and I cannot believe that NO one seems to find this at all galling.

Put yourself in our place, how would you like it bubbles, if your own federal government completely ignored your own countries immigration laws and allowed the indiscriminate and illegal entry of the poorest people from the countries surrounding your own?

Well THAT is what we have here. And the American people are getting sick and tired of it!

We have illegal immigrants, but we also have a law where you have to tell the government your current place of residence, so that way it's pretty easy to comb out the illegal immigrants.
If I was in the US place, I'd enforce laws on businesses hiring illegal immigrants and issue a mandatory background check. The way AZ is handling it won't solve the problem. Asking somebody that gets pulled over more questions and doing a thorough background check just because of their skin color isn't going to get the job done, whereas cracking down on businesses is.

BubbleBliss wrote:We have illegal immigrants, but we also have a law where you have to tell the government your current place of residence, so that way it's pretty easy to comb out the illegal immigrants.

This doesn’t make any sense to me. If the person is in your country illegally, then why on earth would your government merely ask them where they are living (assuming they are going to get a truthful answer, or that the illegal alien wouldn’t just vamoose from that address as soon after reporting it as possible), instead of detaining and deporting them for being there illegally?

You see, the illegal aliens in this country cross the border illegally, which means they are not stopping by some government office to report their illegal activity and then giving that agency their new, illegal, address so that they can be conveniently "combed out" at some later date. They enter illegally, buy illegal fake documents, pose as "legal" residents and try to fly under the radar if they are residing in somewhere other than a "sanctuary city." If only they WOULD stop by the local ICE office to give their address - and then stay there till they could be "combed out" things would be peachy-king... but this is NOT what they do.

I am shocked and amazed that your government has found a way to make persons who have violated your immigration laws (which makes them criminals) actually voluntarily trot on in to a government office to report their crime and give their current, and real address. How on earth have they managed to pull that off???

BubbleBliss wrote:If I was in the US place, I'd enforce laws on businesses hiring illegal immigrants and issue a mandatory background check.

This law is already in place. It is as I have said, the federal government REFUSES to enforce the laws already on the books! This is why Arizona, which is being overrun by illegal immigrants who are committing crimes in ever increasing numbers, including violent crimes, found it necessary to create a state law that exactly mirrors the federal law so that they could do something to stem the crime wave and illegal immigration. In fact, the new law includes provisions that, in certain cases, require even tighter hiring guidelines by Arizona businesses.

BubbleBliss wrote:The way AZ is handling it won't solve the problem. Asking somebody that gets pulled over more questions and doing a thorough background check just because of their skin color isn't going to get the job done, whereas cracking down on businesses is.

How can you even say this? Have you read the bill? I have. Nowhere in that bill does it authorize law enforcement to do what you allege here. I challenge you to find the provision in this very short bill (16 pages) that authorizes this! Cite me the page and line number. I guarantee you that you will be unable to find grounds for this baseless accusation. This is nothing more than a mainstream media talking point and it does not and has never existed in the bill.

Read the bill here: www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf

This is an official Arizona government website, not a slanted, biased media site. And it is a copy of the full bill, as enacted into law by the State of Arizona.

Now then, as a close here, I note that you did not address any of the other points I raised in my post, such as our federal government refusing to enforce immigration laws, or a corrupt Mexican government using the US as a convenient dumping ground for their poorest citizens (who then send billions of dollars back into Mexico from wages they earn here – think the Mexican government wants to lose that income flow?), or the fact that the Mexican President would have the gall to excoriate an American state and it’s citizens as heartless criminals for wanting to enforce the laws of the land, particularly when their own immigration laws are so much more severe and carry far more serious punishments for violations.

Why are these points left unaddressed by you? What would you think if it were Germany suffering these same insults?

I believe an open and honest examination of the points I raised would move this discussion beyond the baseless accusations of “discrimination” or “racism” and onto the very valid points I’ve made.

dblboggie wrote:

BubbleBliss wrote:If I was in the US place, I'd enforce laws on businesses hiring illegal immigrants and issue a mandatory background check.

This law is already in place. It is as I have said, the federal government REFUSES to enforce the laws already on the books! This is why Arizona, which is being overrun by illegal immigrants who are committing crimes in ever increasing numbers, including violent crimes, found it necessary to create a state law that exactly mirrors the federal law so that they could do something to stem the crime wave and illegal immigration. In fact, the new law includes provisions that, in certain cases, require even tighter hiring guidelines by Arizona businesses.

This was debated in here before... about 3 months ago or so.

dblboggie wrote:

BubbleBliss wrote:The way AZ is handling it won't solve the problem. Asking somebody that gets pulled over more questions and doing a thorough background check just because of their skin color isn't going to get the job done, whereas cracking down on businesses is.

How can you even say this? Have you read the bill? I have. Nowhere in that bill does it authorize law enforcement to do what you allege here. I challenge you to find the provision in this very short bill (16 pages) that authorizes this! Cite me the page and line number. I guarantee you that you will be unable to find grounds for this baseless accusation. This is nothing more than a mainstream media talking point and it does not and has never existed in the bill.

Read the bill here: www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf

This is an official Arizona government website, not a slanted, biased media site. And it is a copy of the full bill, as enacted into law by the State of Arizona.

I'm trying to find the thread where all of this was covered in detail. In fact, not only did i post the law with the link, i posted the text of it and highlighted the concerns of those who say what they say about the law. But again, i seems to fall on deaf ears.

dblboggie wrote:Why are these points left unaddressed by you? What would you think if it were Germany suffering these same insults?

I believe an open and honest examination of the points I raised would move this discussion beyond the baseless accusations of “discrimination” or “racism” and onto the very valid points I’ve made.

What gets me is how people defend their immigrations laws but seem to take joy in thwarting ours when we try to enforce them or toughen them. This crap from the illegal immigration is doing damage to this country big time.

Here's the thread i was referring to in my previous post. It's 3 pages long. A very good (and contentious) thread.

http://superiorpolitics.com/politics-f1/obama-s-immigration-hypocrisy-t363.htm#2194

dblboggie wrote:

BubbleBliss wrote:We have illegal immigrants, but we also have a law where you have to tell the government your current place of residence, so that way it's pretty easy to comb out the illegal immigrants.

This doesn’t make any sense to me. If the person is in your country illegally, then why on earth would your government merely ask them where they are living (assuming they are going to get a truthful answer, or that the illegal alien wouldn’t just vamoose from that address as soon after reporting it as possible), instead of detaining and deporting them for being there illegally?

You see, the illegal aliens in this country cross the border illegally, which means they are not stopping by some government office to report their illegal activity and then giving that agency their new, illegal, address so that they can be conveniently "combed out" at some later date. They enter illegally, buy illegal fake documents, pose as "legal" residents and try to fly under the radar if they are residing in somewhere other than a "sanctuary city." If only they WOULD stop by the local ICE office to give their address - and then stay there till they could be "combed out" things would be peachy-king... but this is NOT what they do.

I am shocked and amazed that your government has found a way to make persons who have violated your immigration laws (which makes them criminals) actually voluntarily trot on in to a government office to report their crime and give their current, and real address. How on earth have they managed to pull that off???

You misunderstood what I said, or maybe I worded it wrong. Everybody living in Germany has to give the German gov't their current place of residence and obviously since illegal immigrants can't do that, it's easier for the German government to circle in on illegal immigrant residences. Also, out licenses and IDs aren't as easy to fake as the American ones, and you can't just use somebody elses Social Security number and get away with it.

dblboggie wrote:

BubbleBliss wrote:If I was in the US place, I'd enforce laws on businesses hiring illegal immigrants and issue a mandatory background check.

This law is already in place. It is as I have said, the federal government REFUSES to enforce the laws already on the books! This is why Arizona, which is being overrun by illegal immigrants who are committing crimes in ever increasing numbers, including violent crimes, found it necessary to create a state law that exactly mirrors the federal law so that they could do something to stem the crime wave and illegal immigration. In fact, the new law includes provisions that, in certain cases, require even tighter hiring guidelines by Arizona businesses.

But what federal agency should enforce those laws? FBI, CIA?

That's the problem with AZ, it's the police that enforces the law and therefore makes latinos an easy target of racial profiling.

dblboggie wrote:

BubbleBliss wrote:The way AZ is handling it won't solve the problem. Asking somebody that gets pulled over more questions and doing a thorough background check just because of their skin color isn't going to get the job done, whereas cracking down on businesses is.

How can you even say this? Have you read the bill? I have. Nowhere in that bill does it authorize law enforcement to do what you allege here. I challenge you to find the provision in this very short bill (16 pages) that authorizes this! Cite me the page and line number. I guarantee you that you will be unable to find grounds for this baseless accusation. This is nothing more than a mainstream media talking point and it does not and has never existed in the bill.

Read the bill here: www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf

This is an official Arizona government website, not a slanted, biased media site. And it is a copy of the full bill, as enacted into law by the State of Arizona.

Of course it's not in the law, but it makes it much easier to racially profile. If a white person doesn't use his turn signal, the cop will most likely let him go. Whereas if a Latino looking person doesn't use his turn signal, the cop might pull him over just to check the guys residence status but officially he'll use the fact that he didn't use his turn signal. Of course you'll deny this because it just makes it that much more convenient for you.

dblboggie wrote:

Now then, as a close here, I note that you did not address any of the other points I raised in my post, such as our federal government refusing to enforce immigration laws, or a corrupt Mexican government using the US as a convenient dumping ground for their poorest citizens (who then send billions of dollars back into Mexico from wages they earn here – think the Mexican government wants to lose that income flow?), or the fact that the Mexican President would have the gall to excoriate an American state and it’s citizens as heartless criminals for wanting to enforce the laws of the land, particularly when their own immigration laws are so much more severe and carry far more serious punishments for violations.

I've already said that the government there is corrupt. And why on earth should they stop the flow of illegals, it's only beneficial to them and it's not illegal to exit a country, only to enter a country illegally therefore it's America's problem. Of course as a good neighbor, the Mexico should do something anyways.

Like I said, the problem is not the law itself, but who enforces it.

dblboggie wrote:

Why are these points left unaddressed by you? What would you think if it were Germany suffering these same insults?

I would want Germany to crack down on businesses, not just check people's residence status when they pull people over and then hope that they catch some illegals while doing it. We also have a national police force, which makes it much easier for out federal government to enforce our immigration laws.

dblboggie wrote:

I believe an open and honest examination of the points I raised would move this discussion beyond the baseless accusations of “discrimination” or “racism” and onto the very valid points I’ve made.

If that's what you believe, then that's fine, but just because you believe it doesn't make it right.

The FBI doesn't have the manpower to enforce the federal law on illegals. The CIA is forbidden to operate on US soil (as i've pointed out time and again). The CIA can do their administrative work here and that's it. But each state has it's own state police (troopers), county police (sheriff) and city cops. There's plenty to go around.

Your country is 81 million with 16 states versus 300 million and 50 states.

Our states are sovereign states. This has been lost on many in the last 100 years. A state should be able to enforce it's own laws as long as those laws don't infringe on the federal law. This AZ bill doesn't infringe on federal law.

As fr the rest, i'll let Dbl pipe in since me and you have had this debate already.... but i had to make these other points known.

BubbleBliss wrote:

dblboggie wrote:

BubbleBliss wrote:We have illegal immigrants, but we also have a law where you have to tell the government your current place of residence, so that way it's pretty easy to comb out the illegal immigrants.

This doesn’t make any sense to me. If the person is in your country illegally, then why on earth would your government merely ask them where they are living (assuming they are going to get a truthful answer, or that the illegal alien wouldn’t just vamoose from that address as soon after reporting it as possible), instead of detaining and deporting them for being there illegally?

You see, the illegal aliens in this country cross the border illegally, which means they are not stopping by some government office to report their illegal activity and then giving that agency their new, illegal, address so that they can be conveniently "combed out" at some later date. They enter illegally, buy illegal fake documents, pose as "legal" residents and try to fly under the radar if they are residing in somewhere other than a "sanctuary city." If only they WOULD stop by the local ICE office to give their address - and then stay there till they could be "combed out" things would be peachy-king... but this is NOT what they do.

I am shocked and amazed that your government has found a way to make persons who have violated your immigration laws (which makes them criminals) actually voluntarily trot on in to a government office to report their crime and give their current, and real address. How on earth have they managed to pull that off???

You misunderstood what I said, or maybe I worded it wrong. Everybody living in Germany has to give the German gov't their current place of residence and obviously since illegal immigrants can't do that, it's easier for the German government to circle in on illegal immigrant residences. Also, our licenses and IDs aren't as easy to fake as the American ones, and you can't just use somebody elses Social Security number and get away with it.

So your citizens surrender some autonomy to the federal government in being forced to keep that government informed as to their home address in exchange for hoping that they will somehow determine, by an as yet undefined method, where all the illegal aliens are living and then round them up, right?

And when these government officials or law enforcement officers have it narrowed down as to which neighborhoods to hit, how is it that they know that the people they are then “combing out” aren’t just German citizens who have neglected or forgotten to inform the federal government of their change of address? Or, do they see a person who is obviously a German and move on to those who are clearly not German and ask them for their papers and if they cannot produce evidence of their legal presence in Germany then they are then deported? Or do they make, because the neighborhood is one known to house illegal aliens, a target for producing said proof of legal presence? Is this not discriminating against those who live in that neighborhood? Exactly how does this system actually work?

dblboggie wrote:

BubbleBliss wrote:If I was in the US place, I'd enforce laws on businesses hiring illegal immigrants and issue a mandatory background check.

This law is already in place. It is as I have said, the federal government REFUSES to enforce the laws already on the books! This is why Arizona, which is being overrun by illegal immigrants who are committing crimes in ever increasing numbers, including violent crimes, found it necessary to create a state law that exactly mirrors the federal law so that they could do something to stem the crime wave and illegal immigration. In fact, the new law includes provisions that, in certain cases, require even tighter hiring guidelines by Arizona businesses.

But what federal agency should enforce those laws? FBI, CIA?

That's the problem with AZ, it's the police that enforces the law and therefore makes latinos an easy target of racial profiling.[/quote]

The FBI’s mission is not immigration enforcement, and the CIA is forbidden by law from operating on American soil, its mission is foreign intelligence.

The federal agency charged with enforcing out immigration laws is now called ICE (Immigration and Customs Enforcement). And ICE is not doing it’s job as evidenced by the growing problems amongst our states bordering Mexico. It is particularly bad in Arizona as they have seen a massive increase in illegal aliens and in crimes committed by illegal aliens. With ICE awol on the job, Arizona had no choice but to protect their citizens by enacting the new law.

I don’t know how much clearer I can make this. Our federal government has a hidden (barely) agenda in refusing to see that our immigration laws are enforced by ICE, and the corrupt Mexican government has a completely obvious agenda in assisting their poor to cross into the US illegally (they can actually get maps of good crossing points from their government). This leaves states like Arizona between a rock and a hard place and Arizona finally got fed up with the crap being shoveled on them by the Feds and took matters into their own hands, as they have every right to.

BubbleBliss wrote:

dblboggie wrote:

BubbleBliss wrote:The way AZ is handling it won't solve the problem. Asking somebody that gets pulled over more questions and doing a thorough background check just because of their skin color isn't going to get the job done, whereas cracking down on businesses is.

How can you even say this? Have you read the bill? I have. Nowhere in that bill does it authorize law enforcement to do what you allege here. I challenge you to find the provision in this very short bill (16 pages) that authorizes this! Cite me the page and line number. I guarantee you that you will be unable to find grounds for this baseless accusation. This is nothing more than a mainstream media talking point and it does not and has never existed in the bill.

Read the bill here: www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf

This is an official Arizona government website, not a slanted, biased media site. And it is a copy of the full bill, as enacted into law by the State of Arizona.

Of course it's not in the law, but it makes it much easier to racially profile. If a white person doesn't use his turn signal, the cop will most likely let him go. Whereas if a Latino looking person doesn't use his turn signal, the cop might pull him over just to check the guys residence status but officially he'll use the fact that he didn't use his turn signal. Of course you'll deny this because it just makes it that much more convenient for you.

That’s right! IT’S NOT IN THE LAW!!! And the mainstream media and the Obama administration are lying when they say it IS in the law. Besides, there is absolutely nothing preventing ANY law enforcement agency from doing ANYTHING that is illegal. There are bad people in every strata of life and every occupation, including in law enforcement. So you are saying that because there is a possibility that someone might step outside the written law that we should just leave Arizona defenseless against this foreign invasion? Really? That’s your solution?

BubbleBliss wrote:

dblboggie wrote:Now then, as a close here, I note that you did not address any of the other points I raised in my post, such as our federal government refusing to enforce immigration laws, or a corrupt Mexican government using the US as a convenient dumping ground for their poorest citizens (who then send billions of dollars back into Mexico from wages they earn here – think the Mexican government wants to lose that income flow?), or the fact that the Mexican President would have the gall to excoriate an American state and it’s citizens as heartless criminals for wanting to enforce the laws of the land, particularly when their own immigration laws are so much more severe and carry far more serious punishments for violations.

I've already said that the government there is corrupt. And why on earth should they stop the flow of illegals, it's only beneficial to them and it's not illegal to exit a country, only to enter a country illegally therefore it's America's problem. Of course as a good neighbor, the Mexico should do something anyways.

Like I said, the problem is not the law itself, but who enforces it.

Wow! This is amazingly callous of you Bubbles. So you are saying that because it benefits Mexico, then they should be free to encourage their citizens to engage in an illegal invasion of a neighboring country? You’re fine with Mexico printing and distributing 10’s of thousands of maps outlining the best crossing places for its citizens – because it helps Mexico, and screw the US?

And I guess we American’s should just roll over and accept that a corrupt Mexican government and a corrupt American government are going to screw American citizens over whether they want it or not in order to forward their agendas– is that right?

BubbleBliss wrote:

dblboggie wrote:Why are these points left unaddressed by you? What would you think if it were Germany suffering these same insults?

I would want Germany to crack down on businesses, not just check people's residence status when they pull people over and then hope that they catch some illegals while doing it. We also have a national police force, which makes it much easier for out federal government to enforce our immigration laws.

I would LOVE it if ICE would crack down on businesses as they are supposed to, but they do not. And the Obama Administration and the Democrats on the Hill, as the Bush Administration and the Democrats on the Hill before them, all have no interest in enforcing our laws in the interest of expanding their voting base and creating a new constituency dependent on having Democrats in power to receive their slice of the pie – compliments of American taxpayers. And the Democrats want amnesty for all illegals and a quick path to citizenship for this very reason.

BubbleBliss wrote:

dblboggie wrote:I believe an open and honest examination of the points I raised would move this discussion beyond the baseless accusations of “discrimination” or “racism” and onto the very valid points I’ve made.

If that's what you believe, then that's fine, but just because you believe it doesn't make it right.

There is no right or wrong in that statement. I only expressed an opinion that we should move the conversation beyond the fallacious straw man arguments of “racism” being behind immigration, and talk about the real issues and the real damage being done to our country by unchecked illegal immigration of Mexican citizens to America.

dblboggie wrote:Put yourself in our place, how would you like it bubbles, if your own federal government completely ignored your own countries immigration laws and allowed the indiscriminate and illegal entry of the poorest people from the countries surrounding your own?

Well THAT is what we have here. And the American people are getting sick and tired of it!

Not taking sides here because you all raise good points but bubblebliss, a similar problem exists in Germany with the ill feeling toward illegal immigrants from Turkey. Economically, Turkey is probably in the same situation as Mexico but without the crime that Mexico seems to have.

But in bubblebliss' defence, the case here, as I am sure it is over there, some people do use legitimate gripes against immigration to promote a racist agenda. The BNP do it here as I'm sure neo-Nazis do it in Germany.

Most Americans don't have a problem with Hispanic people. Yep, there's the white superiority groups that hate them and use the border as an excuse. But i've worked with legal Mexicans and ones who were born here. I liked most of them. There's always A-holes in any group and there's is no exception.

My big ripe is the illegals as we all know.

The_Amber_Spyglass wrote:

dblboggie wrote:Put yourself in our place, how would you like it bubbles, if your own federal government completely ignored your own countries immigration laws and allowed the indiscriminate and illegal entry of the poorest people from the countries surrounding your own?

Well THAT is what we have here. And the American people are getting sick and tired of it!

Not taking sides here because you all raise good points but bubblebliss, a similar problem exists in Germany with the ill feeling toward illegal immigrants from Turkey. Economically, Turkey is probably in the same situation as Mexico but without the crime that Mexico seems to have.

But in bubblebliss' defence, the case here, as I am sure it is over there, some people do use legitimate gripes against immigration to promote a racist agenda. The BNP do it here as I'm sure neo-Nazis do it in Germany.

Of course they do, but this is no justification for blocking the Arizona law. The Arizona law does not promote a racist agenda; it seeks to enforce laws already on the federal books which are being ignored by our government to promote a political agenda having nothing to do with the welfare of the people of Arizona, or the welfare of illegal aliens for that matter.

Yes, there will always be that very small minority of persons who still harbor bigoted, prejudiced or even racist feelings toward those of other races or cultures. Mankind will never be able to rid itself of these people, that is just human nature.

However, to use this inescapable fact of life to portray as “racist” an overwhelming majority of American’s who want our border secured and the illegal aliens dealt with is completely unjustified. And yet this is what our own President and the Democrats are trying to do. This is a defamation of the character of 10’s of millions of honest, hard working, taxpaying Americans. It is also the excuse to block the Arizona law (even though it is a mirror of extant federal law – and is actually more cautious respecting discrimination in some respects). To say “well we know those racists over there are all for this law – ergo this law is discriminatory and will be used to profile” is absolutely no justification for blocking this law. But this is what the federal government is doing.

All laws are capable of being perverted by those appointed to uphold them, to use the logic being forwarded by Obama and the Democrats would mean we should pass no laws. After all, less than scrupulous law enforcement officers could use those laws to discriminate. It is absurd on its face.

I can say also that the influx of illegals here is and has created an atmosphere of disgust towards those people. It's a natural thing for that to happen. An example? Most people in large metropolitan areas accept people of different color or cultures because that's mostly where immigrants flock to. Been that way for years. But in the small town i live in (3,000 people), it was a mostly white town. 10+ years ago, Mexicans started to flock here to work at the slaughter house. Now the town is about 30% Hispanic. People here resent it more than even i do (since i lived in urban areas for most of my life).

So, the flood of immigrants, legal and illegal, can and does create resentment amongst people. One, it changes the face of a town and two, it also deals with lack of integration (assimilation) into the community. Most of these people will have nothing to do with the local folks here. That's their problem, not the native population.

Also, when people are starting to see the massive increase in Hispanic population via births here, they get resentful. At the rate that Hispanics are growing, white people will be a minority in this country in 20 years or so. Is that racist thinking? It can be construed that way. But most of those people had no racist feelings to start with and this situation created it.

---

Some stats:

1) According to the 2000 Census, for the first time, non-Hispanic whites are the minority population in the 100 largest U.S. cities.

2) The US Census Bureau predicts that ethnic minorities, encompassing African Americans, Hispanics, and Asian Americans, will represent more than half of the US population by 2040.

3) Latinos (35 million strong) have increased their presence in the U.S. population by 58% over the last 10 years, and recently surpassed African Americans as the largest ethnic minority (2000 U.S. Census,). While non-white Hispanic population grew by 3%.

4) By 2010, almost half of all the nation’s new workers will be individuals traditionally classified as minorities.

5) 6.8 million Americans identify themselves as multiracial (2000 U.S. Census).

6) Hispanics are the fastest growing minority group in the U.S. and are projected to contribute two-thirds to the growth in the size of the high-school-age population over the next decade (U.S. Dept. of Education).

7) In 2000, one of every five new entrants into the workforce was Hispanic (Census).

8) In California, the Hispanic/Latino minority population has now become the majority (huge language implications).

9) By 2050, the Census Bureau projects, Hispanics will be about a quarter of the U.S. population and blacks less than a sixth.

10) Latinos grew at four times the rate as the national population between 2000 and 2002, according to information released this week by the U.S. Census Bureau (2003 DiversityInc.com).

11) The Latino population reached 38.8 million, or 13.3 percent of the U.S. population in 2002, according to the new population estimates released by the Census Bureau. The Latino population experienced a 9.8 percent growth rate since 2000, compared with a national growth rate of 2.5 percent. Latinos were responsible for one half (3.5 million) of the U.S. population growth (6.9 million) between April 2000 and July 2002.

12) Fifty-three percent of the Latino growth over the last two years was attributed to immigration, according to the Census Bureau. In 2002, 40.2 percent (15 million) of Latinos in the United States were born outside the country. Of those, 52.1 percent arrived since 1990. In the 1980s, 25.6 percent of foreign-born Latinos arrived in the U.S. and 22.3 percent arrived prior to 1980.

13) While the U.S. population as a whole is getting older because of the aging Baby-Boomer population, the Latino population is getting younger. More than one-in-three (34.4 percent) of the Latino population in the United States is under the age of 18. This ranges from 37.1 percent of Mexican Americans below the age of 18 to 19.6 percent for Cuban Americans below that age.

Source: Spanish Translation Services

---

So, with all these stats, the face of this nation is changing. Would anyone in here sit by idly while their country's face was changing this dramatically? I think not and everyone here knows it.

Hope that adds another realm to the discussion.

dblboggie wrote:

Bubblebliss wrote:

dblboggie wrote:

You see, the illegal aliens in this country cross the border illegally, which means they are not stopping by some government office to report their illegal activity and then giving that agency their new, illegal, address so that they can be conveniently "combed out" at some later date. They enter illegally, buy illegal fake documents, pose as "legal" residents and try to fly under the radar if they are residing in somewhere other than a "sanctuary city." If only they WOULD stop by the local ICE office to give their address - and then stay there till they could be "combed out" things would be peachy-king... but this is NOT what they do.

I am shocked and amazed that your government has found a way to make persons who have violated your immigration laws (which makes them criminals) actually voluntarily trot on in to a government office to report their crime and give their current, and real address. How on earth have they managed to pull that off???

You misunderstood what I said, or maybe I worded it wrong. Everybody living in Germany has to give the German gov't their current place of residence and obviously since illegal immigrants can't do that, it's easier for the German government to circle in on illegal immigrant residences. Also, our licenses and IDs aren't as easy to fake as the American ones, and you can't just use somebody elses Social Security number and get away with it.

So your citizens surrender some autonomy to the federal government in being forced to keep that government informed as to their home address in exchange for hoping that they will somehow determine, by an as yet undefined method, where all the illegal aliens are living and then round them up, right?

False. The reason why we have to register out place of residence with the government has nothing to do with illegal immigrants, it just happens to make it easier for the gov't to comb them out if there ever was a huge amount of illegals in Germany like there is in the US.

dblboggie wrote:

And when these government officials or law enforcement officers have it narrowed down as to which neighborhoods to hit, how is it that they know that the people they are then “combing out” aren’t just German citizens who have neglected or forgotten to inform the federal government of their change of address?

First of all, the German government doesn't hit neighborhoods to comb people out, we don't have that big of an immigration problem. Second, if that was to happen, it wouldn't happen like you explained it. The government doesn't just go to people's houses and ask the people living there for their status of residence. Even though the government would technically have the right to do that, it would have to be approved by a judge who would need to see probable cause. If the government were to present the fact that somebody is living there unregistered and there have been no taxes paid from that adress, then that would be probable cause for the government to stop by and take a look, but that doesn't happen because our immigration problem is not big enough to justify that.
The German government cracks down on people hiring illegals, and it has worked out so far. Every employer HAS to do a background check on the person's residence status and there's no way for an illegal alien to fool the employer. So if it turns out that an employer does employ illegal immigrants, he's punished and the immigrants are deported. Like I said, it's not as easy to fake a drivers license and social security card here like it is in the US.

dblboggie wrote:

Or, do they see a person who is obviously a German and move on to those who are clearly not German and ask them for their papers and if they cannot produce evidence of their legal presence in Germany then they are then deported? Or do they make, because the neighborhood is one known to house illegal aliens, a target for producing said proof of legal presence? Is this not discriminating against those who live in that neighborhood? Exactly how does this system actually work?

None of this happens, as it is not allowed by our Constitution since that would be racial profiling.

dblboggie wrote:

Bubblebliss wrote:

dblboggie wrote:

Bubblebliss wrote:If I was in the US place, I'd enforce laws on businesses hiring illegal immigrants and issue a mandatory background check.

This law is already in place. It is as I have said, the federal government REFUSES to enforce the laws already on the books! This is why Arizona, which is being overrun by illegal immigrants who are committing crimes in ever increasing numbers, including violent crimes, found it necessary to create a state law that exactly mirrors the federal law so that they could do something to stem the crime wave and illegal immigration. In fact, the new law includes provisions that, in certain cases, require even tighter hiring guidelines by Arizona businesses.

But what federal agency should enforce those laws? FBI, CIA?

That's the problem with AZ, it's the police that enforces the law and therefore makes latinos an easy target of racial profiling.

The FBI’s mission is not immigration enforcement, and the CIA is forbidden by law from operating on American soil, its mission is foreign intelligence.

The federal agency charged with enforcing out immigration laws is now called ICE (Immigration and Customs Enforcement). And ICE is not doing it’s job as evidenced by the growing problems amongst our states bordering Mexico. It is particularly bad in Arizona as they have seen a massive increase in illegal aliens and in crimes committed by illegal aliens. With ICE awol on the job, Arizona had no choice but to protect their citizens by enacting the new law.

Exactly my point. There is no federal agency that has the manpower to enforce the Federal law that's already in place. How can the ICE enforce the laws on the books? It's impossible! The only way the ICE could enforce immigration laws is to crack down on businesses that are hiring illegals, but since it's easy to fool an employer into thinking that you are a legal citizen, that's easier said than done. The only solution would be a nation wide ID card that is almost impossible to fake, but I don't see you or Tex approving of that.

dblboggie wrote:

I don’t know how much clearer I can make this. Our federal government has a hidden (barely) agenda in refusing to see that our immigration laws are enforced by ICE, and the corrupt Mexican government has a completely obvious agenda in assisting their poor to cross into the US illegally (they can actually get maps of good crossing points from their government). This leaves states like Arizona between a rock and a hard place and Arizona finally got fed up with the crap being shoveled on them by the Feds and took matters into their own hands, as they have every right to.

Do you have a source for the fact that people can get those kind of maps from the Mexican government?

So why does AZ choose the police to enforce the law, and doesn't crack down on businesses? That way there is no chance of racial profiling, and it would no doubt be much more effective than waiting for the illegals to commit a driving error in front of a police vehicle.

dblboggie wrote:

BubbleBliss wrote:

dblboggie wrote:

BubbleBliss wrote:The way AZ is handling it won't solve the problem. Asking somebody that gets pulled over more questions and doing a thorough background check just because of their skin color isn't going to get the job done, whereas cracking down on businesses is.

How can you even say this? Have you read the bill? I have. Nowhere in that bill does it authorize law enforcement to do what you allege here. I challenge you to find the provision in this very short bill (16 pages) that authorizes this! Cite me the page and line number. I guarantee you that you will be unable to find grounds for this baseless accusation. This is nothing more than a mainstream media talking point and it does not and has never existed in the bill.

Read the bill here: www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf

This is an official Arizona government website, not a slanted, biased media site. And it is a copy of the full bill, as enacted into law by the State of Arizona.

Of course it's not in the law, but it makes it much easier to racially profile. If a white person doesn't use his turn signal, the cop will most likely let him go. Whereas if a Latino looking person doesn't use his turn signal, the cop might pull him over just to check the guys residence status but officially he'll use the fact that he didn't use his turn signal. Of course you'll deny this because it just makes it that much more convenient for you.

That’s right! IT’S NOT IN THE LAW!!! And the mainstream media and the Obama administration are lying when they say it IS in the law. Besides, there is absolutely nothing preventing ANY law enforcement agency from doing ANYTHING that is illegal. There are bad people in every strata of life and every occupation, including in law enforcement. So you are saying that because there is a possibility that someone might step outside the written law that we should just leave Arizona defenseless against this foreign invasion? Really? That’s your solution?

Just because it's not in the law doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Police officers aren't supposed to racial profile to begin with, but how many times does it happen? Or are you saying that just because they're not supposed to do it, they don't?

No, that's what you're trying to tell yourself I'm saying. I'm saying to crack down on businesses, nothing more and nothing less. If there's no place to work, then there will be no reason for illegals to come to the US anymore. What's your problem with cracking down on businesses?

dblboggie wrote:

BubbleBliss wrote:

dblboggie wrote:Now then, as a close here, I note that you did not address any of the other points I raised in my post, such as our federal government refusing to enforce immigration laws, or a corrupt Mexican government using the US as a convenient dumping ground for their poorest citizens (who then send billions of dollars back into Mexico from wages they earn here – think the Mexican government wants to lose that income flow?), or the fact that the Mexican President would have the gall to excoriate an American state and it’s citizens as heartless criminals for wanting to enforce the laws of the land, particularly when their own immigration laws are so much more severe and carry far more serious punishments for violations.

I've already said that the government there is corrupt. And why on earth should they stop the flow of illegals, it's only beneficial to them and it's not illegal to exit a country, only to enter a country illegally therefore it's America's problem. Of course as a good neighbor, the Mexico should do something anyways.

Like I said, the problem is not the law itself, but who enforces it.

Wow! This is amazingly callous of you Bubbles. So you are saying that because it benefits Mexico, then they should be free to encourage their citizens to engage in an illegal invasion of a neighboring country? You’re fine with Mexico printing and distributing 10’s of thousands of maps outlining the best crossing places for its citizens – because it helps Mexico, and screw the US?

I never said it's the right thing of Mexico to do, that's just wishful thinking on your part, in fact I said the opposite of that already. But it's not in a country's nature to stop something that's beneficial to them, even if it hurts their neighbor. That's the sad truth.

dblboggie wrote:

And I guess we American’s should just roll over and accept that a corrupt Mexican government and a corrupt American government are going to screw American citizens over whether they want it or not in order to forward their agendas– is that right?

Once again, wishful thinking on your part. Cracking down on businesses is the solution, pure and simple. Eliminate the jobs, and they will stop coming.
You Conservatives think that just because one is against this law, one is automatically against every law that affects illegal immigration in the US. It's the good old black and white vision, either you're for it or for illegal immigration.

dblboggie wrote:

BubbleBliss wrote:

dblboggie wrote:Why are these points left unaddressed by you? What would you think if it were Germany suffering these same insults?

I would want Germany to crack down on businesses, not just check people's residence status when they pull people over and then hope that they catch some illegals while doing it. We also have a national police force, which makes it much easier for out federal government to enforce our immigration laws.

I would LOVE it if ICE would crack down on businesses as they are supposed to, but they do not. And the Obama Administration and the Democrats on the Hill, as the Bush Administration and the Democrats on the Hill before them, all have no interest in enforcing our laws in the interest of expanding their voting base and creating a new constituency dependent on having Democrats in power to receive their slice of the pie – compliments of American taxpayers. And the Democrats want amnesty for all illegals and a quick path to citizenship for this very reason.

So why doesn't AZ crack down on businesses if they're so tired of illegal immigrants and the Feds won't do it?

dblboggie wrote:

BubbleBliss wrote:

dblboggie wrote:I believe an open and honest examination of the points I raised would move this discussion beyond the baseless accusations of “discrimination” or “racism” and onto the very valid points I’ve made.

If that's what you believe, then that's fine, but just because you believe it doesn't make it right.

There is no right or wrong in that statement. I only expressed an opinion that we should move the conversation beyond the fallacious straw man arguments of “racism” being behind immigration, and talk about the real issues and the real damage being done to our country by unchecked illegal immigration of Mexican citizens to America.

The damage is clear, but the enforcing of the law and how to deal with the problem isn't.