Suicide due to bullying/teasing

Are these people serious?
Do they want me to believe their kid committed suicide because of being teased and pushed around by others?
Mostly everybody goes through being teased at some point in their life and somehow they don't hang themselves or jump off of bridges...

It's just like the old philosophy of kids not knowing how to do things these days like can openers or rotary phones...they are so accustomed to being treated in a ceratin way, they don't know how to handle being teased or bullied.

If I killed myself after being teased in school, I would have been dead for dozens of years!

Things were different in our day. Now days, kids get shit posted of them on the internet And trust me, it never goes away. If a girl decides to masturbate on her web cam on a cam site, people are there recording this stuff and then it's posted on various web sites. She's now forever labeled as a cam whore. Same thing with this gay kid that died last week.

Bullying needs to stop but then we go back to parents and teachers.

Young people committing suicide due to bullying is nothing new. It's just that people are becoming more aware of it again - as new forms of bullying arise.

And bullying is not necessarily just teasing. It can be anything from occasional name calling to serious, prolonged verbal abuse; or anything from pushing and shoving to physical assault (I remember a girl at my school was being bullied by some boys, it culminated when she had to be taken to the school nurse when one of them kicked her between the legs, and I've heard far worse stories than that since then). Bullying can be carried out by one person, or by large groups. In some cases a child might find themselves totally ostracised if the bully belongs to a large group and others are afraid to put themselves in the firing line.

Also, there's a huge amount of pressure on young people today to fit in and to be successful. I think it is worse that it's ever been before - and social networking, and other types of modern technology are making the problem of bullying much more acute. As Tex mentions, internet bullying is a big problem. Imagine having your most humiliating moment from high school uploaded onto the internet so that people could watch it again and again? (Mine involved a long jump and a wonky jumping pad - and me ending up with a face full of sand). Then imagine that if a person deliberately humiliated you, filmed it and uploaded it onto the internet so they could continue to torment you. Or using mobile phones to stalk or harass you.

You have to try and appreciate that the bullying you experienced might have no similarity to what some of these kids go through. And if they have no one to turn to, it can seem like the end of the world. Isolated, unable to think of a way out or to get perspective - not in control, feeling worthless, helpless, different and unlikely to ever fit in.

It's so hard to be a teenager. Your emotions are literally out of control - and for someone who might also be struggling with depression, it's little surprise that some of these kids take, or try to take, their own lives.

Also one might add that many didn't grow up as a geek. Not the kind of geek we know today, but a real nerd so to speak. Those people have always been the scorn of others.

Even in the adult world, it exists. Where i worked at my last full time job before losing it to this recession, i was harassed. Why? Because i was from Texas and living in Minnesota. No matter how many times i tried to explain to people that i was born in Minnesota and graduated here, it didn't matter. I talked funny and lived in Texas.

On some level, I almost agree with TheNextPrez2012. Bullying is just a part of growing up - and part of me wants to say, "Get over it." But I'm not that callous... True, to a point, bullying will happen and it is a part of growing up, especially (IMO) in the elementary school years. But (and again it's only opinion), even by the early teens, most of the bullying usually subsides - unless one is "different" (and by different of course, I mean pretty much anything from eyeglasses to clothing to the more serious realm of physical or emotional disabilities that one might have). When someone is "different", apparently their seen as "lesser" to society - and thereby it's okay to bully them, no matter what their age. In a nutshell (and in my opinion), that's the point where "harmless bullying" (for lack of a better term) turns into real prejudice... Granted, not everyone sees that. But not everyone is "different". Some people are though - and they are constantly being reminded that they always will be - or always be perceived to be. And no matter the age, that will f**k with one's head.

I think we all know that some kids get picked on more than others and i can accept that some will be psychologically damaged by constant bullying. It is also on another level now because of the facebook generation.

The_Amber_Spyglass wrote:It is also on another level now because of the facebook generation.

That was the point i made earlier in the thread. Anything you do now is forever posted on the internet. People use that against others (kids vs kids). Heck, when i Google my name, stuff is there to see (but not this place). Nothing that's worth talking about, but it's there all the same.

TexasBlue wrote:

The_Amber_Spyglass wrote:It is also on another level now because of the facebook generation.

That was the point i made earlier in the thread. Anything you do now is forever posted on the internet. People use that against others (kids vs kids). Heck, when i Google my name, stuff is there to see (but not this place). Nothing that's worth talking about, but it's there all the same.

No kidding. I Yahooed my Yahoo ID recently and I found stuff that I'd posted in various places ten years ago. I couldn't even remember it.

I used to post on Usenet and those posts still exist from back in 2000.

i_luv_miley wrote:On some level, I almost agree with TheNextPrez2012. Bullying is just a part of growing up - and part of me wants to say, "Get over it."

Schools no longer take a tolerant stance on bullying because it simply does not build character. Those who were bullied as children won't grow up more resistant towards it. If anything, it does the opposite of growing up - people working in a climate where bullying is normal cannot take responsibilities for their failures and pass the blame on to others.

Judas Priest's Rob Halford Speaks Out On Anti-Gay Bullying, Suicides

In a brand new interview with About.com, Judas Priest frontman Rob Halford was asked about the recent string of highly publicized suicides by gay teenagers and what he thinks can be done to help prevent them. "I think, more than anything, it's a picture of the way life is," Halford replied. "You have all this sexting going on, and cyberbullying going on. It's absolutely heartbreaking when people are driven to the point where they are taking their own lives.

"I'm pleased that talented people like Ellen Degeneres and Neil Patrick Harris are speaking out. They are far more articulate than I am.

"The most imporant thing is to show the love and support that is out there for everybody, whether you're being bullied or not. It's important to look after each other and to nurture each other, especially in your school years.

"I saw bullying when I was a kid growing up in school. It has always been there.

"It's a very peculiar thing.

"It's a shame that it takes horrible tragedies like this to bring the spotlight back on. It has to stay there now. It can't just fizzle out in a couple weeks, like things tend to do in the media.

"Programs need to be installed in schools, or reinforced. Parents need to keep an eye on their kids a little bit more. The social interaction that's available 24 hours a day has to be utilized in a strong, educating, promotional way to let people who are going through those periods of their lives know that there's always somebody you can talk to.

"Don't feel alone. There's a way we can help each other get through these types of difficulties."

What has surprised me about all of these recent suicides involving bullying is how little attention has been given to the actual suicide aspect of the situations. It seems very much to me that we are saying that the bullies caused the suicides. One might very well say that indirectly they did, but I would claim that very claim arguable. Why? Because many, many more individuals- Of all sexual orientations, races, national origins, etc.- are bullied every day and do not kill themselves. The issue here is not necessarily with bullying itself, but with the minds of those being bullied.

No matter how much one is bullied, he or she has choices to make in how they are going to respond. The growing problem seems to be that more and more young individuals are viewing their own lives as dispensible and are more likely to succumb to feelings of severe depression. I'm not trying to understate the deterimental effects of bullying; it can literally destroy a person, mentally and physically. But when you look at some of these cases, you see that the bullying that took place was not even close to the kind that would even warrant suicide (If suicide is ever, ever an option- That is another matter, in itself).

Take for example the case of Jeheem Herrera:

A spate of suicides claimed victims as young as eleven last year. Georgia fifth-grader Jeheem Herrera hanged himself in April of 2009 after enduring anti-gay abuse at school. Herrera’s mother told the media that when she asked a friend of her son’s about the suicide, the friend said to her, "He told me that he’s tired of everybody always messing with him in school." The friend added, "He is tired of telling the teachers and the staff, and they never do anything about the problems. So, the only way out is by killing himself."

Now, unfortunately sexually-charged insults and comments are not uncommon in elementary school, especially today more so than generations past, but I cannot fathom how any amount of bullying would ever drive a fifth grader to take their own lives. I think back to when I was fifth grade- I watched cartoons all the time, and my biggest worries in life were minute, to say the least. I faced adversity of my own. Honestly, there are always going to be bullies in schools, and I would not say that bullying is worse now than it was generations before. It's just changed forms.

What is getting worse, however, is the suicide rate among young people. The issue here, again, is not bullying but suicide. Not all of the recent suicides with accusedly gay teens involved can be distinctly tied with bullying. We'd like to think so and blame the bully for the victim's death, but likely in most of these cases, there was something else going on in the background.

Now I may sound heartless, but it must be said- Suicide is a cowardly act. It is running away from adversity, rather than taking it head-on. It is not a coping method for bullying; it is letting the bully "win", in a sense. If it must be looked at like a competition, then the only way to "win" is to hold on. Now while I for the most part support the "It Gets Better" campaign, I don't think we should water-down the severity of suicide.

Even in cases of those intensely bullied, suicide is never acceptable. Those who commit suicide often value their own wants over the wants of their family and friends, for if they truly, consciously cared more about the happiness of their family/friends more than their own happiness, they would not take their own lives and cause them so much sorrow. In addition to investing time and money in bully awareness programs and such, we should take on the issue of suicide with even more fierceness.

Good analysis. Never quite thought of it in that manner.

A well written, well reasoned response on this issue V!

How would you address the mental health component in this? That is, in what percentage of cases could we say that an actual mental disorder was in play here? How is that addressed by the "It Gets Better" campaign? I ask because I really have no experience or information on this issue whatsoever.

V wrote:Now I may sound heartless, but it must be said- Suicide is a cowardly act. It is running away from adversity, rather than taking it head-on. It is not a coping method for bullying; it is letting the bully "win", in a sense. If it must be looked at like a competition, then the only way to "win" is to hold on. Now while I for the most part support the "It Gets Better" campaign, I don't think we should water-down the severity of suicide.

I think there's a bit of a contradiction in what you have just said. Previously you stated that you didn't think bullying could be the only reason kids are taking their lives - and I agree with you, I'm sure there are other underlying reasons. In which case, to focus on the bullying aspect in your analysis is contradictory. I would also disagree that suicide is a cowardly act. It is an act of desperation, committed by those who feel that their situation will never get better. The major cause of suicide is depression (or other forms of mood disorder). To suggest that those who attempt suicide are 'just running away' displays a total lack of understanding of what depressives suffer. For someone with severe depression there is absolutely no possibility that things will get better - or at least, that is how they feel. For a depressive, it feels as though every positive aspect of their life has been drained away, there is nothing to alleviate the sense of dread, emptiness, fear and desperation, there is only a black gaping void - compared to which, even death seems preferable. The last thing a person with sever depression would be concerned with is whether they are letting their depression 'win', or indeed, any bullies in their lives.

V wrote:Even in cases of those intensely bullied, suicide is never acceptable. Those who commit suicide often value their own wants over the wants of their family and friends, for if they truly, consciously cared more about the happiness of their family/friends more than their own happiness, they would not take their own lives and cause them so much sorrow. In addition to investing time and money in bully awareness programs and such, we should take on the issue of suicide with even more fierceness.

I think that totally disregards the suffering of the person who chooses to take their own life. I would never condemn a person who felt so desperate that the only option left open to them was to take their own life. You show concern for those left behind - but not the person who was suffering so greatly. How is condemning people who feel so utterly helpless in anyway constructive?

v wrote:Now I may sound heartless, but it must be said- Suicide is a cowardly act.

I have to disagree with that in the vast majority of cases. Of course, there are some who certainly do commit suicide to avoid something, for who it is clearly an act of cowardice. Adolf Hilter for one. Harold Shipman and Fred West are both notorious serial killers in this country who took their lives to avoid facing up to justice. All took their own lives and in those three cases they were most certainly cowardly.

However, what about people with a terminal illness with no quality of life and no chance of seeing any improvement? What about those who are dying a slow, lingering death. Is it cowardly for them to want to end it all? No, and I tell you one thing. If I am ever in that situation then I'm on the first aeroplane to Switzerland to let a Doctor do it for me. "Living" goes beyond merely breathing, eating and shitting and if there is ever a point where that is all I have left and cannot do anything else then I don't want to go on living knowing that only agony and slow painful death awaits. I certainly don't see that as cowardly.

As BecMacFeegle stated, depressives are another thing. I don't mean just feeling a bit fed up because you lost your job or your girlfriend left you. I'm talking about genuine depression, that there really is nothing in life to live for and there never will be, the feeling of emotional emptiness. Some will attempt suicide as a desperate cry for help, others will do it simply for the attention but some can no longer live with the feeling of emotional emptiness and the overwhelming notion that things will never and can never get better.

v wrote:What has surprised me about all of these recent suicides involving bullying is how little attention has been given to the actual suicide aspect of the situations. It seems very much to me that we are saying that the bullies caused the suicides. One might very well say that indirectly they did, but I would claim that very claim arguable. Why? Because many, many more individuals- Of all sexual orientations, races, national origins, etc.- are bullied every day and do not kill themselves. The issue here is not necessarily with bullying itself, but with the minds of those being bullied.

No matter how much one is bullied, he or she has choices to make in how they are going to respond. The growing problem seems to be that more and more young individuals are viewing their own lives as dispensible and are more likely to succumb to feelings of severe depression. I'm not trying to understate the deterimental effects of bullying; it can literally destroy a person, mentally and physically. But when you look at some of these cases, you see that the bullying that took place was not even close to the kind that would even warrant suicide (If suicide is ever, ever an option- That is another matter, in itself).

cos others did not chose suicide as their answer to the un-bearable bullying they where under, means those who did where some how lesser people.. too waek to live in the normal world you and I live.

such a view or argument is so sad.. and of so little understand of bullying or of suicide it's self.

v wrote: I cannot fathom how any amount of bullying would ever drive a fifth grader to take their own lives. I think back to when I was fifth grade- I watched cartoons all the time, and my biggest worries in life were minute, to say the least. I faced adversity of my own. Honestly, there are always going to be bullies in schools, and I would not say that bullying is worse now than it was generations before. It's just changed forms.

What is getting worse, however, is the suicide rate among young people. The issue here, again, is not bullying but suicide. Not all of the recent suicides with accusedly gay teens involved can be distinctly tied with bullying. We'd like to think so and blame the bully for the victim's death, but likely in most of these cases, there was something else going on in the background.

cos... young people use suicide as an answer to more then just bullying, it some how lessens the validity of the suicide.

v wrote:Now I may sound heartless, but it must be said- Suicide is a cowardly act. It is running away from adversity, rather than taking it head-on. It is not a coping method for bullying; it is letting the bully "win", in a sense.

not only does it sound heartless, it's sounds like a return to the past where the suicides are punished as much after death as they where before death.. suicide was a crime punishable by imprisonment through out the western world if it failed or punishable by being thrown into hell and a refusal of burial in holy ground by all Christian faiths.

Over time the view of suicides [self murder] changed from being a crime against god and their fellow men.. To an act all to human where “there but for fortune go you or I” a suicide was no weaker or more cowardly or less human then you or I.

v wrote: If it must be looked at like a competition, then the only way to "win" is to hold on. Now while I for the most part support the "It Gets Better" campaign, I don't think we should water-down the severity of suicide.

why not look at as a battle [ which is sadly what too many young see themselves in ] and in a battle, a suicide run was never seen as a failure if it brought total victory one step nearer.

v wrote:Even in cases of those intensely bullied, suicide is never acceptable. Those who commit suicide often value their own wants over the wants of their family and friends, for if they truly, consciously cared more about the happiness of their family/friends more than their own happiness, they would not take their own lives and cause them so much sorrow. In addition to investing time and money in bully awareness programs and such, we should take on the issue of suicide with even more fierceness.

what a way to dismiss and ignore the actions of so many young people.. A refusual to see their lives and their deaths had meaning and value.

we must ask ourselves what is suicide.. self murder, a cowards away out, a fashionable closer to an empty life, a way of punishing those who remain, a waste of a life.

we must ask ourselves what is bullying.. picking on the weak, an act of binding one's self to a group, pleasure in the pain of others, an act of emotional violence

and how and why do these 2 things conect in so many deaths ??????????

dblboggie wrote:A well written, well reasoned response on this issue V!

How would you address the mental health component in this? That is, in what percentage of cases could we say that an actual mental disorder was in play here? How is that addressed by the "It Gets Better" campaign? I ask because I really have no experience or information on this issue whatsoever.

I must admit that I probably no very little more experience or information on this issue, either. The only "experience" I have is reading about this, hearing about this, and from simply having good friends who are homosexual/bisexual, suffer from depression, or both. Many of my friends have taken to heart this issue, and thus in a way it is fairly relevent. I thankfully, however, do not know of anyone personally who succeeded in committing suicide. Only those who have tried, and also thankfully, failed.

As others have said, clinical depression is a major contributor in suicide. When I look at these cases, especially with younger individuals, I can't help but wonder what else might be going on. Yes, it is quite possible that the severe bullying was the paramount stressor in the child's life, but some cases do indicate that the bullying- althoug horrid, and still unacceptable- was relatively moderate, compared to more severe cases, in which children do not commit suicide. Again, one thing that sparks my mind is why these children in the recent weeks- in particular, those self-proclaimed to be gay and those accused of being gay- went farther than others have in the past and in the present, for some of those people who are bravely holding onto their lives have not been driven to that route.

If clinical depression is the key here, and that the only reason these kids and young adults took their lives was because of an underlying, known-about or perhaps hidden depression, then it could be derrived that it wasn't necessarily the bullying that "caused" the suicide, but rather the bullying was the "final straw." Bullying is horrid, and in its worst forms, it does degrade a person. However, I do not believe that all of these recent cases involve bullying so severe that their situations are comparable to that of a person suffering from a terminal illness and is incredible pain. That, I feel, is an exaggeration at the worst.

BecMacFeegle wrote:

V wrote:Now I may sound heartless, but it must be said- Suicide is a cowardly act. It is running away from adversity, rather than taking it head-on. It is not a coping method for bullying; it is letting the bully "win", in a sense. If it must be looked at like a competition, then the only way to "win" is to hold on. Now while I for the most part support the "It Gets Better" campaign, I don't think we should water-down the severity of suicide.

I think there's a bit of a contradiction in what you have just said. Previously you stated that you didn't think bullying could be the only reason kids are taking their lives - and I agree with you, I'm sure there are other underlying reasons. In which case, to focus on the bullying aspect in your analysis is contradictory. I would also disagree that suicide is a cowardly act. It is an act of desperation, committed by those who feel that their situation will never get better. The major cause of suicide is depression (or other forms of mood disorder). To suggest that those who attempt suicide are 'just running away' displays a total lack of understanding of what depressives suffer. For someone with severe depression there is absolutely no possibility that things will get better - or at least, that is how they feel. For a depressive, it feels as though every positive aspect of their life has been drained away, there is nothing to alleviate the sense of dread, emptiness, fear and desperation, there is only a black gaping void - compared to which, even death seems preferable. The last thing a person with sever depression would be concerned with is whether they are letting their depression 'win', or indeed, any bullies in their lives.

I will concede that my previous post is contradictory, in a sense. You might view this one also as such; I'm relatively inexperienced in these types of discussions, so have some mercy on me. I bolded "or at least, that is how they feel", because that is something I acknowledge and must respond to directly. I still do view suicide as "running away." However, many who have become suicidal will not look at it as such- They will look at it as a necessary course of action. But they are wrong. One who observes from the outside knows, or at the very least strongly feels, that it is not necessary. Suicide isn't ever really necessary- I cannot fabricate a situation in which it would be. Even if the pain of living is severe, the point of suicide remains the same. To get away from the pain. To escape. I could use that euphemism, if you'd prefer. So, they aren't "running away"; they're trying to "get away from the pain". No matter how you word it, the point of suicide is to escape from the pain of life as they currently know it.

Now why do I feel suicide is cowardly? I have a firm belief that things can always get better, even in the most severe of cases. While I understand (Yet I cannot relate to the feelings) why one who is feeling suicidal might consider their potential efforts in a way bold and even couragous, when one chooses to die and escape pain rather than live and endure it, I do view it as cowardly. Am I brave? No. I'm not calling those who are suicidal cowardly; many endure more than I can imagine. However, that doesn't change what the act itself is- Something cowardly. One takes their own life to get away from living, to run away from life and run towards death. If anyone here thinks that suicide is something that makes a person more couragous for giving it a try- or even succeeding- be my guest to point out the errors in my logic. I welcome that.

BecMacFeegle wrote:

V wrote:Even in cases of those intensely bullied, suicide is never acceptable. Those who commit suicide often value their own wants over the wants of their family and friends, for if they truly, consciously cared more about the happiness of their family/friends more than their own happiness, they would not take their own lives and cause them so much sorrow. In addition to investing time and money in bully awareness programs and such, we should take on the issue of suicide with even more fierceness.

I think that totally disregards the suffering of the person who chooses to take their own life. I would never condemn a person who felt so desperate that the only option left open to them was to take their own life. You show concern for those left behind - but not the person who was suffering so greatly. How is condemning people who feel so utterly helpless in anyway constructive?

I'm curious as to why you think I show no concern for one who is suffering from bullying/suicidal thoughts? Perhaps my words are too easy to misinterpret, or perhaps I'm just not being clear enough. I do show concern. The mind of one who is suicidal is often portrayed as likely to think thus in regards to their family, "They're better off without me, anyway" or, "they won't miss me". To one suffering from severe depression, this may seem logical. But that's their own reasoning; if one wants to know someone else's look on something, they must go to the person directly, rather than assume or rationalize for themselves how a given person will feel about this or that. For the greatest accuracy, one must consult the individual about the situation they wish to know their views upon.

Since most who take their own lives, unless I am mistaken, do not tell their loved ones of the thoughts they've been having lately, we can draw a few conclusions. We can say that they didn't feel they could talk to their family- Which shows either rational or irrational distrust; both of which are concerning in their own right- or that they simply assumed that they were right about their family's views and left it that. And if the latter is true, how are they not caring more about themselves than the family?

While it is on my mind, I must inform you all that although I know many who suffer from depression, I do not understand the dissorder fully. Perhaps I am quite wrong about these things; please, inform me how I am, if you have more insight into this than I do.

[quote="cable2"]

v wrote:What has surprised me about all of these recent suicides involving bullying is how little attention has been given to the actual suicide aspect of the situations. It seems very much to me that we are saying that the bullies caused the suicides. One might very well say that indirectly they did, but I would claim that very claim arguable. Why? Because many, many more individuals- Of all sexual orientations, races, national origins, etc.- are bullied every day and do not kill themselves. The issue here is not necessarily with bullying itself, but with the minds of those being bullied.

No matter how much one is bullied, he or she has choices to make in how they are going to respond. The growing problem seems to be that more and more young individuals are viewing their own lives as dispensible and are more likely to succumb to feelings of severe depression. I'm not trying to understate the deterimental effects of bullying; it can literally destroy a person, mentally and physically. But when you look at some of these cases, you see that the bullying that took place was not even close to the kind that would even warrant suicide (If suicide is ever, ever an option- That is another matter, in itself).

cable2 wrote:cos others did not chose suicide as their answer to the un-bearable bullying they where under, means those who did where some how lesser people.. too waek to live in the normal world you and I live.

No, no. I would not say that they are "lesser people". I do not believe there is such a thing; I believe in human equality. They are not predisposed to be overall inferrior. I wouldn't say that they are weaker, overall. It depends on what you mean, though. If two individuals are given the same stressors and the exact same type and level of severity of major depressive dissorder, and one of the two commits suicide while the other does not, yes, I would say the latter is stronger. But anyone who takes on depression and tries to live a normal life despite it has at least some strength.

cable2 wrote: what a way to dismiss and ignore the actions of so many young people.. A refusual to see their lives and their deaths had meaning and value.

Why do you think I'm refusing to see their lives as valuable? I would not see most suicides in modern times as honorable ways to die, no. I think it's very, very heartbreaking, actually, that one would resort to suicide. In times of old, when there were commonly battles such as the type you mentioned in your post, suicide often could be perceived as more honorable. I can see how it would be better to die by one's own hand in a battle than by the enemy's. But any battle here is illusionary, is it not? Please, expand upon your comment- What actions of young people am I dismissing? I very well might be ignoring them, or just forgot to mention them, but I wish to know more.

Again, my view: Suicide here is the issue more so than bullying; if only one of the two is to be more seriously adressed than before, let it be suicide. But let us hope that both will decrease in frequency; let us all agree that the world would be a much better place if both were to diminish in occurance.

v wrote:However, I do not believe that all of these recent cases involve bullying so severe that their situations are comparable to that of a person suffering from a terminal illness and is incredible pain.

I think you miss my point. You said all suicides are cowardly and I asked you how you could say that about terminal patients for whom the situation will never get better. That is the point of the phrase "terminally ill".

v wrote:If anyone here thinks that suicide is something that makes a person more couragous for giving it a try- or even succeeding- be my guest to point out the errors in my logic. I welcome that.

I can think of several instances
1. Terminal patients with nothing left to live for, whose life will only get worse and more painful - cowardice/bravery is irrelevant.
2. Clinical depression - A feeling of emotional emptiness or excessively low mood, that life is unbearable and will never get better. The reason we give "most" depressives pills or treatment is simply telling them to "be a man" or "pull yourself together" isn't enough. Some have a psychological disorder, for others it is neurological. Cowardice/Courage will hardly be at the forefront of their reasoning
3. Cry for help - The intent is not to end one's life, but a cry for help for a problem that is unbearable. They cannot or lack the ability to communicate. If the point is not to end one's life, yet they are taking the risk that it might happen, just so they can make a desperate plea for help because they know no other way, is that not courageous to take such a risk?

I will concede that my previous post is contradictory, in a sense. You might view this one also as such; I'm relatively inexperienced in these types of discussions, so have some mercy on me.

The vaudevillian veteran, who has vowed to vanquish venal and virulent vermin van-guarding vice and vouchsafing the violently vicious and voracious violation of volition, sworn to enact vengeance; suggests he needs mercy?!

I am neither vacariously vicious, nor vehemently vengeful, I voice my views with vivacity but have no wish to victimise. In short, I'm a pussy cat really

I bolded "or at least, that is how they feel", because that is something I acknowledge and must respond to directly. I still do view suicide as "running away." However, many who have become suicidal will not look at it as such- They will look at it as a necessary course of action. But they are wrong. One who observes from the outside knows, or at the very least strongly feels, that it is not necessary. Suicide isn't ever really necessary- I cannot fabricate a situation in which it would be. Even if the pain of living is severe, the point of suicide remains the same. To get away from the pain. To escape. I could use that euphemism, if you'd prefer. So, they aren't "running away"; they're trying to "get away from the pain". No matter how you word it, the point of suicide is to escape from the pain of life as they currently know it.

I'm not sure that people who commit suicide necessarily view it as 'necessary', so much as the only option. Is such clarity of thought really applied to those who feel so utterly helpless? It is hard to appreciate, for one who has not experienced directly the the crippling disability of depression- to say that from the outside, they have other options, is quite true. But the point is how the individual on the inside of the situation is suffering. Depression is a disease of the mind - and a sufferer can no more acknowledge that 'things will get better' than they could fly to the moon. To speak of necessity and cowardice, implies that the individual has a choice. Simply put - for a severe depressive, there may well come a point when there is no choice. I would no more judge a person who chose to take their own life in this situation than someone who was in horrendous physical pain.

Do some take their lives without real thought Of the cosequences? Perhaps - but the majority of suicides are committed by those with severe mood disorders. Saying they are cowards or running away, is rather like saying that the mentally ill are stupid for being insane - they have the same level of self-determination.

And will life always get better? For some, no it will not - and some do not have the ability to improve their state of existence. For children being bullied, I am sure that there is a strong chance that their lives will improve - but if they are also suffering from depression, there is no way they would be able to acknowledge that. These people do need help, even for serious depressives there is hope - but sometimes it has to be given to them, they cannot always find it for themselves. If they can only see one way out of their pain - they will take it, and they can hardly be judged for that.

Now why do I feel suicide is cowardly? I have a firm belief that things can always get better, even in the most severe of cases. While I understand (Yet I cannot relate to the feelings) why one who is feeling suicidal might consider their potential efforts in a way bold and even couragous, when one chooses to die and escape pain rather than live and endure it, I do view it as cowardly. Am I brave? No. I'm not calling those who are suicidal cowardly; many endure more than I can imagine. However, that doesn't change what the act itself is- Something cowardly. One takes their own life to get away from living, to run away from life and run towards death. If anyone here thinks that suicide is something that makes a person more couragous for giving it a try- or even succeeding- be my guest to point out the errors in my logic. I welcome that.

If an action is not cowardly, need it be courageous? If one does not comdemn an action, must one be in support of it? I do not think so. I don't support suicide - I think those who are suicidal are often in no fit state mentally to decide for themselves. In an ideal world, they would be given psychiatric help and prevented from harming themselves until they can be given treatment. But if there really is no release from their depression, if they can find no way to live with it - and I do mean live and not 'survive', then I would not expect a person to live in pain, or else be labeled a coward.

I'm curious as to why you think I show no concern for one who is suffering from bullying/suicidal thoughts? Perhaps my words are too easy to misinterpret, or perhaps I'm just not being clear enough. I do show concern. The mind of one who is suicidal is often portrayed as likely to think thus in regards to their family, "They're better off without me, anyway" or, "they won't miss me". To one suffering from severe depression, this may seem logical. But that's their own reasoning; if one wants to know someone else's look on something, they must go to the person directly, rather than assume or rationalize for themselves how a given person will feel about this or that. For the greatest accuracy, one must consult the individual about the situation they wish to know their views upon.

I never suggested that you show no concern for the person, rather that you don't show enough regard for their level of suffering. I think you are - in your comment there - expecting far too much rationality from a person suffering from a mental illness.

Since most who take their own lives, unless I am mistaken, do not tell their loved ones of the thoughts they've been having lately, we can draw a few conclusions. We can say that they didn't feel they could talk to their family- Which shows either rational or irrational distrust; both of which are concerning in their own right- or that they simply assumed that they were right about their family's views and left it that. And if the latter is true, how are they not caring more about themselves than the family?

Depression is an isolating disease - an inability to communicate and paranoia are all part of it. Unless a person is taught how to deal with their depression, they would not know that talking is a very important part of living with their problem. I also think you are still being very judgemental with regard to a person who is, most likely, not in their right state of mind. Depression is a mental illness - people who suffer from it are not deliberately being selfish - they are locked into their own suffering, and need to be taught ways to live with it.

About the guy that was filmed and jumped off of a bridge:
I can understand the "invasion of privacy" issue but I don't go for the "filmers were responsible" baloney. If he was secretly filmed playing his instrument he is still alive. The truth is he died because he was embarrassed by who (and what) he was.
Elton John and Ellen Degeneres are the same life-style. They're still alive, right?