Iran: What a mess

BubbleBliss wrote:
Oh yeah, I forgot that Texas was a country back in the day.

What I don't understand is how it matters that Israel was a nation and Palestine wasn't. The Israelis left their homeland whereas the Palestinians stayed.

I guess one could say the same if the American Indians rose up and wanted all their land back.

Yeah, would you support them in their effort like you support Israel? It's the same situation...

BubbleBliss wrote:
The Israelis left their homeland whereas the Palestinians stayed.

Not exactly. At least, not entirely.

The Jewish revolt of (roughly) 65-73 AD evicted the Romans and for a time, Israel belong to the Jews again. This was the time frame in which the epic battle of Masada took place. But with Rome's reconquest of Judea, there was wholesale slaughter. They, the Roman legions, were absolutely merciless so, many who had not been killed or taken prisoner, fled in all directions.

Some ended up in eastern Europe, some further west, some in what is today Russia. This general dispersal saw Jewish communities develop over much of the region that was not then under Roman authority.

Later, there were many and ongoing efforts to rid the Jews from Europe. The Church hosted a number of these episodes as well as did the Spanish Inquisition.

So, it's not like they left Israel to make Europeans hate them. They ran for their lives from the Romans. But the human condition includes a very base, fundamental tribalism that we generally ignore. It is instinctive that we are this way as a matter of survival... even though the question of survival is today no longer in question. We still act out those instincts.

BubbleBliss wrote:
Yeah, would you support them in their effort like you support Israel? It's the same situation...

Of course not. I live here.

Palestine was never a nation. Yeah, the area was inhabited by Arabs, but that's another thread.

Arx Ferrum wrote:

BubbleBliss wrote:
The Israelis left their homeland whereas the Palestinians stayed.

Not exactly. At least, not entirely.

The Jewish revolt of (roughly) 65-73 AD evicted the Romans and for a time, Israel belong to the Jews again. This was the time frame in which the epic battle of Masada took place. But with Rome's reconquest of Judea, there was wholesale slaughter. They, the Roman legions, were absolutely merciless so, many who had not been killed or taken prisoner, fled in all directions.

Some ended up in eastern Europe, some further west, some in what is today Russia. This general dispersal saw Jewish communities develop over much of the region that was not then under Roman authority.

Later, there were many and ongoing efforts to rid the Jews from Europe. The Church hosted a number of these episodes as well as did the Spanish Inquisition.

So, it's not like they left Israel to make Europeans hate them. They ran for their lives from the Romans. But the human condition includes a very base, fundamental tribalism that we generally ignore. It is instinctive that we are this way as a matter of survival... even though the question of survival is today no longer in question. We still act out those instincts.

Yes, 'left' may not be the right word to use. My point is that the Jews evacuated/left behind their homeland for whatever reason and another people made it their home. Much like the settlers did in the US with Indian lands.

TexasBlue wrote:

BubbleBliss wrote:
Yeah, would you support them in their effort like you support Israel? It's the same situation...

Of course not. I live here.

Palestine was never a nation. Yeah, the area was inhabited by Arabs, but that's another thread.

So you support Israel in getting back a land that they lost in wars, but you don't support Native Americans in getting back the lands they lost in wars?

And please tell me what Palestine not being a country has to do with any of that. You keep bringing it up but never mention the significance of it...

"Yes, 'left' may not be the right word to use. My point is that the Jews evacuated/left behind their homeland for whatever reason and another people made it their home."

Yes, well, that's another thing. Those today who are called 'Palestinians' are actually some of the same peoples who lived in the area at the same time that ancient Israel existed. In many cases, though this is never spoken, in many cases, the bloodlines are only defined by the faith that followed; Islam. In short, while some (though certainly not all) Israelis/Jews have more recent roots in Europe, the Palestinian people are made up of a number of differing origins, including Egypt, what is today Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and of course, ancient Israel.

The whole thing is less about flags than religion. Islam doesn't quarter any other beliefs. Christians, Jews, Hindus, etc. they are all infidels and like the Christian church of old, there is no tolerance. They must be eliminated.

If we choose history as a marker, then the Jews have a legit claim to Israel. They may find it in their benefit to make peace with the Palestinians but... it was the Romans that created the state of Palestine and the British that later was given mandate to protect it.

Using history as a marker is always difficult... going after the "who was there first" concept, then the Jews have a claim but going after the "who was there when the smoke cleared" concept, the Arabs have a claim...

Fact is that, like you pointed out, bloodlines have mixed over the years and the only thing that keeps people apart now is religion. I'd go as far as to say that before Islam, Jews and Palestinians were pretty hard to identify as to who was what since the Palestinians were also Jewish in the Israeli Kingdoms...

BubbleBliss wrote:Using history as a marker is always difficult... going after the "who was there first" concept, then the Jews have a claim but going after the "who was there when the smoke cleared" concept, the Arabs have a claim...

Fact is that, like you pointed out, bloodlines have mixed over the years and the only thing that keeps people apart now is religion. I'd go as far as to say that before Islam, Jews and Palestinians were pretty hard to identify as to who was what since the Palestinians were also Jewish in the Israeli Kingdoms...

Okee dokee!

Now that we have found this common ground, where do you propose we go to make peace between the Israelis and Palestinians? The Jews and Muslims? As you can see, there are no simple answers. Just picking one side or the other can be no more than a simple process of applying personal politics. And... once we confess that it is no more than our personal political views that drive our opinions, there is nothing left for us to do.

The problem belongs to those peoples who have lived side by side for thousands of years, marrying, warring, living and dying. They are the ones that will live together or die together.

But this has now hopped a magical Persian flying carpet from the subject of nukes and Iran. If Iran were to keep its nose out of the affair, then the Israelis and Palestinians could war on each other to their heart's content. I mean... we have determined that it is THEIR country to fight over. Not Iran's.

BubbleBliss wrote:So you support Israel in getting back a land that they lost in wars, but you don't support Native Americans in getting back the lands they lost in wars?

Israel lost what in what war?

BubbleBliss wrote:And please tell me what Palestine not being a country has to do with any of that. You keep bringing it up but never mention the significance of it...

Significance of a nation that never existed? That's the whole point. There is no Palestine and never has been.

Arx Ferrum wrote:

BubbleBliss wrote:Using history as a marker is always difficult... going after the "who was there first" concept, then the Jews have a claim but going after the "who was there when the smoke cleared" concept, the Arabs have a claim...

Fact is that, like you pointed out, bloodlines have mixed over the years and the only thing that keeps people apart now is religion. I'd go as far as to say that before Islam, Jews and Palestinians were pretty hard to identify as to who was what since the Palestinians were also Jewish in the Israeli Kingdoms...

Okee dokee!

Now that we have found this common ground, where do you propose we go to make peace between the Israelis and Palestinians? The Jews and Muslims? As you can see, there are no simple answers. Just picking one side or the other can be no more than a simple process of applying personal politics. And... once we confess that it is no more than our personal political views that drive our opinions, there is nothing left for us to do.

The problem belongs to those peoples who have lived side by side for thousands of years, marrying, warring, living and dying. They are the ones that will live together or die together.

But this has now hopped a magical Persian flying carpet from the subject of nukes and Iran. If Iran were to keep its nose out of the affair, then the Israelis and Palestinians could war on each other to their heart's content. I mean... we have determined that it is THEIR country to fight over. Not Iran's.

You're right, there are no simple answers. We'll just have to wait and see if Iran actually does receive support from neighboring countries or if it stands alone. I'd also be curious about Saudi Arabias involvement, if a big scale war actually does break out in that region.

TexasBlue wrote:

BubbleBliss wrote:So you support Israel in getting back a land that they lost in wars, but you don't support Native Americans in getting back the lands they lost in wars?

Israel lost what in what war?

BubbleBliss wrote:And please tell me what Palestine not being a country has to do with any of that. You keep bringing it up but never mention the significance of it...

Significance of a nation that never existed? That's the whole point. There is no Palestine and never has been.

As Arx has pointed out, the Jews were expelled from their homeland or fled political and religious repression. That's how they lost their land over the course of history.

So what? Did Austria not have a right to exist because it used to be part of Germany? What about Switzerland? What about all the African nations whose borders were drawn up at will by the western powers? Did the United States have a right to become an independent nation even though there never was a United States??

Arx, here are 2 interesting articles that cover the subject at hand:

http://www.economist.com/node/21538177

http://www.economist.com/node/21538146