Outgoing Security Advisor Jones Voices Concern on Pakistan

Outgoing Security Advisor Jones Voices Concern on Pakistan

US President Barack Obama is losing yet another advisor: National Security Advisor James Jones is resigning. Shortly before the announcement, SPIEGEL ONLINE spoke to Jones about the war on terror and the delicate state of the US relationship with Pakistan.

For 40 years, James L. Jones served in the military before he hung up his uniform and became national security advisor in Washington. But in the future, United States President Barack Obama will have to do without his expert advice -- Jones plans to step down, a high-ranking colleague in the US government said on Friday.

The official said that Obama is expected to announce Jones' resignation on Friday. The exact date of his departure hasn't been set, but it could happen before the end of the year. His successor is expected to he his current deputy security advisor, Thomas E. Donilon.

The government official did not state the reason for Jones' departure, but there has long been speculation in the capital about the move. It has been said that Jones was unhappy that he had not been included as part of the innermost leadership circle within the White House.

In recent days, several senior Obama advisers have resigned, including Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel, top economic adviser Lawrence Summers and chief strategist David Axelrod.

In an interview with SPIEGEL ONLINE shortly before the development, Jones provided a progress report on the war on terror and explained the next important steps in America's strategy. As the breeding ground of international terror, Pakistan will play a pivotal role in that strategy. And if Pakistan wants to remain a long-term partner to the US, Jones said, it will have to make a greater effort in the fight against terror.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Recently you came to Berlin as US President Barack Obama's representative to help Germany celebrate 20 years of reunification. But you also came to warn Germans about a specific terrorist threat. How serious is it?
Jones: October 3 is a very important date that we can all be very proud of. The second purpose of my visit was to meet with my German colleague Christoph Häusgen (Chancellor Angela Merkel's top foreign and security policy advisor) to continue the discussions on mutual interests and one of them was the alert that was published a couple days back in the United States.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Can you be more specific please?

Jones: Al-Qaida may have some focus on Europe right now -- although not in a specific place. We wanted to make sure that our governments act in concert and that our populations understand fully what we think the level of threat is. What we know is thought to be credible information.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: The main source of this warning is a 36-year-old German member of the radical Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan, Ahmed Sidiqqi, who was trained in Pakistan and is now being held in American custody in Afghanistan. Why is Pakistan still the main breeding ground of terrorism?

Jones: We have been working very closely with the Pakistani government for a long time now. In some cases the Pakistanis have responded quite well. Their operations in the Swat Valley and South Waziristan, for example, were timely and very effective. At the same time, there has been a very steady message that Pakistan needs to do more to stem terrorism, especially when they know where it is and when officials have information about what the terrorists are doing. If the Pakistanis are going to be a partner in the long term, they have to make a commitment that shows the watching world that they are serious about forms of terrorism.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Should your cooperation with the Pakistani army fail, is there a possibility that Pakistan would become the next military target of the US?

Jones: I am going to take the optimistic view that rational people do rational things and that -- with the help of friends and allies and common goals -- Pakistan will avoid, or hopefully avoid, that unfortunate eventuality. But hope is not a strategy, so we have to be cognizant of the fact that there are things which could happen that could alter the relationship if we are not careful.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Can you define exactly who is the enemy in the Hindu Kush region today?

Jones: Our enemies are the radicals who are targeting not only the US but also Europe, who advocate violence and who want to bring harm to our way of life and the world as we know it today. This is not a threat which is going to go away in the near future. This is a 21st-century-reality, a struggle at least for the first half of the century.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: How long will international NATO troops still be needed for this struggle?

Jones: President Hamid Karzai at the London conference claimed that he would like to be "fully in charge" of his entire country by 2014, an aim the international community will also embrace. We hope to see the beginning of that transition between the NATO summit this year in November in Lisbon and next July. But it should be a transition that the world community can be comfortable and confident with, not just the United States. And that the Afghans can see that their army and police and instruments of governance are gradually taking hold.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Hasn't NATO largely failed as an effective alliance in Afghanistan?

Jones: I don't think so, there are many NATO countries who have sent their soldiers and resources there. They are doing a lot and the final chapter hasn't been written yet. We should wait and see how the transition period works out. As far as the new strategic concept of NATO is concerned -- which will be discussed in Lisbon in November -- if it includes a NATO which is more proactive in areas where al-Qaida is making inroads and where threats are coming towards us collectively, then I will consider NATO of the future to be an alliance for the good of our collective security.

'It Is Never Fun to Read about Yourself in a Negative Way'

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Will the US give up its military bases in Afghanistan and pull out when you have achieved your goals?
Jones: We have every intention of honoring our long-term commitment in Afghanistan and in Pakistan as well. We will not always have 100,000 Americans on the ground in full combat gear as we do now. We want the Afghans to assume eventual responsibility, but it does include long-term economic programs, long-term stability programs and long-term governance programs.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Still, your military presence in the region is a provocation for neighboring countries like China and Iran?

Jones: First of all, it is in the interest of all the countries that share a border with Afghanistan that it becomes a reasonably stable state. In the case of Russia and China, they are supportive of our efforts. We talk to China quite a bit -- they are very much concerned about Afghanistan, about the drug trade, for example, which crosses their borders. But I would think that Iran, as another example, would also benefit from a stable Afghanistan.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: The Americans have always viewed Afghanistan as the war of necessity. Do you think that is still true today?

Jones: If it was right then, it is probably right now. We made a commitment to the people of Afghanistan that we would try to provide for them a better life, a better future, a better opportunity. But, at the end of the day, we can't want these things more than the Afghans do themselves. So there is a certain duality of purpose here where the Afghans now, after almost 10 years, have to be able to show that they are also capable of stepping up and taking increased responsibilities for their future.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: You have sought to take action against the operators of the Internet platform WikiLeaks, the website which releases classified documents like the Afghanistan war logs, which media outlets like SPIEGEL, the New York Times and the Guardian have reviewed and reported on. In what way does this website threaten US national security?

Jones: We will survive this, but obviously to bring about successful solutions there is a need to maintain important secrets for a while. In many cases secrets protect lives of people who would otherwise be at risk. There is a right time and a right place for everything and this was certainly not the right time or the right place for these revelations, and they put peoples' lives at risk.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: When the Rolling Stone article appeared which led to General Stanley McChrystal's replacement in Afghanistan, it revealed that the US-military team in Kabul was very disrespectful of the US government, and of you. A new book published by investigative journalist Bob Woodward provides a similar account. Were you offended?

Jones: It is never fun to read about yourself in a negative way. It hurts your family, it hurts your friends. Some of it is true, some of it is not, but at the end of the day you can't be taking on significant jobs expecting that you go free of criticism. The more you push on something, the more you poke at something, the more you question things, the more people who don't agree with your way are going to start criticizing you. I take it with a grain of salt.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Looking at the global security situation today, do you see greater chances for peace or do you see more wars?

Jones: This is a very historical time we are living in and we had a century-defining moment...

SPIEGEL ONLINE: ...the 9/11 attacks.

Jones: Now we understand better the various threats we face -- the threat of climate change, of our energy sources, the threat that terrorism brings, a world in which the haves and the have nots are more starkly defined than before. The poor countries are striving to rise into the globalized world and, I believe, the developed nations are beginning to understand that if they don't address their issues seriously, these countries may be the Afghanistans and Pakistans and Iraqs of the future.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: What is Americas approach to this challenge?

Jones: I think we are very much at a crossroads and one of the big challenges is -- given that you have a rising China as well as other countries -- how do you stay competitive and how do you reorganize yourself to face the new realities. We need a globalized community spirit which has a comprehensive sense of what the world should look like in 20 years. If we do that, our children will have a better life. If we do it poorly, though, it will definitely not be fun for them.

Interview conducted by Susanne Koelbl

I have the same concerns. It's the same shit all over the middle east as it is in Pakistan.... Islamic nut cases trying to run the show via their usual terror tactics. If Pakistan falls to Islamic crazies, everyone better look out. Pakistan has nukes. India will keep a close eye on this also.